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Tanks and somethings they may not tell you

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tanks and somethings they may not tell you

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
03.22.2012 , 10:37 AM | #21
I am listening....and this is what I hear from you:

You think we ought to waste the threat component of the buff 100% of the time on the person causing the least threat in the group. You want us to waste the damage reduction component of the buff the vast majority of the time on someone who is almost always standing outside the range where the buff works.

I think decreasing the threat of the melee dps who is likely to cause the most threat of anyone in the group and using the damage reduction on that same melee dps who is likely always standing within range is way way smarter.

As far as a battle res goes, I see an awful lot of sage dps who have a battle res. I also see a lot of commando healers without one. I guess that all depends on your group.

I can tell you that my groups rarely need a battle res and I don't waste my guard buff based on who can bail us out if things go wrong. I use it to ensure things go right.

That's the real difference here. You are championing the idea of using the buff as a way to plan for failure. I think we ought to use it as a way to plan for sucess.

_Zorth_'s Avatar


_Zorth_
03.22.2012 , 11:05 AM | #22
If your healers rip aggro of you, you are doing something wrong.
thye only get 5% damage reduction with guard, that's not nearly enough to keep them safe. Guard healers in PvP, not in PvE.

The DPS that comes after you on the threat list should be guarded, In my case it's my Mercenary friend with his 6k crits on his tracer missiles. :P
The Red Eclipse
Best Player World Wide
..Greedo shot first

Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
03.22.2012 , 11:15 AM | #23
"I am listening....and this is what I hear from you:"
- You aren't. I am suggesting that the OP tank try and promote communication with his group. There are multiple threat generation/management tools and not every situation is simplified into "guard healer/guard melee dps". And for you to insult people people for bringing up other suggestions and ideas other than your own makes you the type of player that is not enjoyable to play with.

"You think we ought to waste the threat component of the buff 100% of the time on the person causing the least threat in the group"
- Any heal that person makes generates threat on all mobs. That net threat on targets getting focused attacked is less, yes, but not necessarily lower for the collective of mobs.

"You want us to waste the damage reduction component of the buff the vast majority of the time on someone who is almost always standing outside the range where the buff works."
- If the healer comes under fire, they still have the option to move within 15m and receive the damage reduction. Please keep in mind that if a DPS momentarily snatches threat away from the tank that DPS can use a med while the tank is reacquiring threat. The purpose of a tank is to minimize splash damage. If the DPS decides to position himself in front of cones, AOE pounds, or fail to focus fire mobs then it is their fault.

"I think decreasing the threat of the melee dps who is likely to cause the most threat of anyone in the group and using the damage reduction on that same melee dps who is likely always standing within range is way way smarter."
- You still never addressed my scenario where there are multiple DPS'ers with high threat, all pulling the mob around. In addition, you do not seem to understand that if a melee DPS stands at his max attack range, he is less likely to pull the mob due to threat. I've mentioned it twice now (look it up).
- Communication is key. A tank has enough tools and rotations to handle threat on a single target. If a single DPS is pulling threat, the tank and DPS need to communicate more to coordinate their attack bursts and tank taunt rotations. If multiple DPS are pulling too much threat, then your tank needs to step it up and the guard is least of concerns. It is an ops for a reason. Tell your DPS stop being captain america. They don't need to limit their DPS bursts, just do it when a tank can manage it.

"That's the real difference here. You are championing the idea of using the buff as a way to plan for failure. I think we ought to use it as a way to plan for sucess."
- If you are relying on the DPS of a single individual to win then you have already failed. If you are relying on the damage reduction to win, then you are failing as a tank. To have a back up plan for when things do not go as planned, that is the key for success.

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
03.22.2012 , 11:19 AM | #24
It doesn't matter how many people tell you that you are incorrect so I'm not going to continue arguing with you.

You can keep wasting your guard buff on the person who gets the least benefit from it. The rest of us prefer to use the buff in a beneficial way.

WinterWraith's Avatar


WinterWraith
03.22.2012 , 11:30 AM | #25
Why do you think Guard is going to save a healer being attacked? It's only the threat reduction and a 5% damage reduction, the 50% damage transfer works in PvP only.

The threat component is pointless on them with how little threat heals cause and if something does attack them they're going to die just as fast as they would without it.

By just staying close enough to benefit from guard they also risk exposing themselves to close range aoe's which are quite common. Putting it on a melee DPS works because they have to be close enough to risk this anyway.

The fact that melee DPS count as ranged for threat pulling at max melee range is irrelevant, we're suggesting to put guard on melee simply because of guard's range limit.

JLapp's Avatar


JLapp
03.22.2012 , 11:38 AM | #26
Yeah....guard belongs on a melee dps.

If healers are pulling aggro you are doing something terribly wrong.
If ranged/healers are within 15m they are probably doing something wrong.
Melee are far more susceptible to damage than ranged/healers in most pve content.

SamuraiLeo's Avatar


SamuraiLeo
03.22.2012 , 12:00 PM | #27
who here is arguing for guarding the dps who is actually a healer
if a healer told me this i may actually be convinced

Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
03.22.2012 , 12:47 PM | #28
Come back after you've played with a balanced group. When you have multiple permutations of melee/range DPS and healing combos then you will learn that threat management isn't a simple set of absolute rules.

You never addressed the scenario where multiple DPS'ers are capable of outputting massive damage that would pull threat from the tank. Your assumptions still lie in that only 1 person needs guard. Once you learn how to play effectively with a group then guard won't be needed. That is what I suggest the OP learn how to do.

You guys make contradictory comments.

"Melee DPS needs damage reduction" - "Healer should never need that pitiful 5% damage reduction"

"DPS need threat reduction" - "Healer will die no matter what" (Not if they drop threat by moving into guard)

JLapp's Avatar


JLapp
03.22.2012 , 03:31 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Kil-Gorbane View Post
You guys make contradictory comments.

"Melee DPS needs damage reduction" - "Healer should never need that pitiful 5% damage reduction"

"DPS need threat reduction" - "Healer will die no matter what" (Not if they drop threat by moving into guard)

Those are not contradictory...

Melees are going to get hit far more than healers...the damage reduction portion is better served being on melee classes.

As many people have mentioned...healing threat in this game is pitiful. It's base is 50% plus they have skills that reduce it from there. My experience has been that if something is hitting a healer...it is because no one else has attacked it at all and hitting it even once with my base attack will pull it off the healer.

Equally geared DPS should be able to pull aggro off you in the first 20-30s of a boss fight. After that aggro shouldn't be a problem (except for threat drops). No reason not to allow one of the DPSers the chance to unload a little more early on in a fight.

Guard is never really going to make or break anything...but it's best use is on a melee dps.

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
03.22.2012 , 05:04 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by JLapp View Post
Those are not contradictory...

Melees are going to get hit far more than healers...the damage reduction portion is better served being on melee classes.

As many people have mentioned...healing threat in this game is pitiful. It's base is 50% plus they have skills that reduce it from there. My experience has been that if something is hitting a healer...it is because no one else has attacked it at all and hitting it even once with my base attack will pull it off the healer.

Equally geared DPS should be able to pull aggro off you in the first 20-30s of a boss fight. After that aggro shouldn't be a problem (except for threat drops). No reason not to allow one of the DPSers the chance to unload a little more early on in a fight.

Guard is never really going to make or break anything...but it's best use is on a melee dps.
This.

Reducing healing threat accomplishes nothing. The only things that will ever be hitting the healer are things no one but them have any threat at all on. A reduction in their % of threat does zero good.

I don't understand why it is so difficult to determine that we ought to reduce threat on the people who produce threat. Arguing otherwise is like telling the healer to cast his heals on the person with the full health bar.