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Tanks and somethings they may not tell you

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tanks and somethings they may not tell you

Rafkin's Avatar


Rafkin
03.21.2012 , 06:50 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Kil-Gorbane View Post
In PVE, there are more DPS'ers than healers. Single most effective use is to put the guard on healer. Melee DPS"ers should be standing at max attack range so they are considered range damage threat (read up on that if you are confused). Even with all DPS doing their best damage a tank should be able to manage threat on a single target with no problem AND still guard the healer. Most group compositions have other means for DPS'ers to manage or drop threat. There are too many DPS'ers for a single guard to be useful on them unless the tank is capable of swapping it around.
There is no way for a healer to rip aggro and they are never within 15 meters...so you're just wasting guard buddy.

Ibiza-Vin's Avatar


Ibiza-Vin
03.21.2012 , 07:17 PM | #12
Well...the thread got a little hijacked but I liked the original premise. Sooo...

Tank: "So DPS order is fire->saber->lightning, k?"
DPS 1: "Split DPS, got it."
Tank: "No no focus fire on the marks in that order. These are elites"
DPS 1: "Got it. I'll get on saber, <DPS 2> get on lightning. Pop cooldowns as soon as you hit him"
DPS 2: "Deal"
Tank: "Wait!"

DPS pulls, tank runs around trying to somehow keep aggro on all the mobs, healer has heartattack trying to heal the tank plus clothie DPS.

After pull

DPS 1: "Dude did you see that?! I got a 7k crit!!! ROFLMAO!"
DPS 2: "Duuuude!"
DPS 1: "Rez me nubs"

Tank and Healer secretly plot DPS's deaths.

What is the thing that tanks might not tell you? *LEARN COMMON SENSE SO YOU DON'T DIE*
Venni - 50 Assassin
<Casual>
Prophecy of the Five/ Port Nowhere

Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
03.21.2012 , 07:21 PM | #13
No way? So the tank can hold aggro on all mobs for the entire op/flashpoint? All trash throughout the PVE event? The mobs dont have stun/knockback mechanics that throw wrenches into the plan? Keep in mind that the threat generation mechanics work for a healer too. A healer is the same as a DPS'er in this regards. A healer crits and so does a DPS'er.

The healer has the option to move within 15 m if it does come under threat.

Taleek's Avatar


Taleek
03.21.2012 , 07:32 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Ibiza-Vin View Post
Well...the thread got a little hijacked but I liked the original premise. Sooo...

Tank: "So DPS order is fire->saber->lightning, k?"
DPS 1: "Split DPS, got it."
Tank: "No no focus fire on the marks in that order. These are elites"
DPS 1: "Got it. I'll get on saber, <DPS 2> get on lightning. Pop cooldowns as soon as you hit him"
DPS 2: "Deal"
Tank: "Wait!"

DPS pulls, tank runs around trying to somehow keep aggro on all the mobs, healer has heartattack trying to heal the tank plus clothie DPS.

After pull

DPS 1: "Dude did you see that?! I got a 7k crit!!! ROFLMAO!"
DPS 2: "Duuuude!"
DPS 1: "Rez me nubs"

Tank and Healer secretly plot DPS's deaths.

What is the thing that tanks might not tell you? *LEARN COMMON SENSE SO YOU DON'T DIE*
Oh my god you have no idea how true this is.... Wait, no, you do.
*insert witty retort that will become someone's signature*- Kitty Prawn
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=347245
.- Never forget.
"DPS is science, healing is art, tanking is strategy."

alifaraaz's Avatar


alifaraaz
03.22.2012 , 04:56 AM | #15
To OP, you seem to be a bit stubborn in taking other peoples advice/information about this.

Guard should be used on the melee dps that you feel are gonna be generating highest threat which often means the highest geared one too, such as your best assassin or marauder etc.

The simple reason for this is that it allows them to push that extra dps, without over-aggroing. I assume you get this much.

As for putting guard on healer, I actually did used to do this in my lowbie levels before realising exactly what it does and why it's useless on a healer.

Firstly as people mentioned - they're usually out of range. But even if they're not:

Second - they do not generate much threat. Which means if they're pulling it probably means people havn't even touched the mob thats been aggroed, or only touched it once or something. So in this case, it'll only take a handful of attacks, or a simple taunt to grab them back. If this is happening often, then you're just not creating enough threat on the secondary mobs.

This usually happens when the mob was CC'd, and then after CC breaks if nobody's attacking the mob, they go for the healer. So you just need to hit it a bit or just taunt as I said.

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.22.2012 , 06:44 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by alifaraaz View Post
Second - they do not generate much threat. Which means if they're pulling it probably means people havn't even touched the mob thats been aggroed, or only touched it once or something. So in this case, it'll only take a handful of attacks, or a simple taunt to grab them back. If this is happening often, then you're just not creating enough threat on the secondary mobs.
This is correct, people who've tested it have determined that heals cause 50% threat. In other words, if a healer heals someone for 5k they only create 2.5k threat...which means that any DPS should have more threat than a healer.

In most other games, healer threat is also split across all mobs. I have not heard if people have proven that to be true in this game, but it is thought to be likely...

So, if there are 5 mobs in a group (regardless of if they are gold/silver/normals), and the healer heals someone for 5k. They've created 2.5k threat which is split between all 5 mobs, so the healer only has 500 threat on each mob.

Long story short: If you lost agro to the healer, then a one of a few different things have happened:

1) it's normals and the beginning of the fight: healer heals themselves through the small amount of damage until the normals are all dead.
2) it's normals and it's been a long time after the fight has started: DPS suck, tell them to kill the normals.
3) it's a silver/gold that just broke out of cc: tank should taunt & smack them once or twice OR have someone re-cc if possible.
4) it's a silver/gold: tank just sucks.

Also...taunt doesn't break cc, so if you are worried about where a cc'd mob will go...taunt them before cc breaks.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
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Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
03.22.2012 , 07:02 AM | #17
"Guard should be used on the melee dps that you feel are gonna be generating highest threat which often means the highest geared one too, such as your best assassin or marauder etc."

This has been tested too. A melee DPS'er should always be attacking at max range. If they do, then they are not considered a melee attacker by the mobs. Thus instead of needing 110% threat to pull, they need 130%.

If the group is going smoothly, the DPS should be able to burn through normal mobs (killing them before feeling effects of pulling them) and the tank should be able to hold the golds. Typically no one should have threat issues. So by everyone's logic in here; the tank should put guard on no one. BUT that is not the case. Guard is passive, it is there for the oh-**** scenario. And in that oh **** scenario, would you rather have guard on the healer or DPS who doesn't know what he is doing. A healer death will almost guarantee a wipe. DPS death, not so much.

If the tank is having issues holding threat during the high DPS bursts during a boss (beginning is most problematic- DPS use cool downs and relics) then the tank needs to reorganize it's order. A taunt to start the fight is pointless. Save the taunt after the initial burst of DPS when it would be most effective (taunting and raising the tanks threat to levels above those high burst DPS > pulling with taunt). Instead the tank should pull with his heavy hitting attacks and AOE taunt (AOE taunt is different from single target taunt. The single target raises the tanks threat above the highest threat generator; AOE taunt just forces mobs to attack in those 6 seconds).

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
03.22.2012 , 07:48 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kil-Gorbane View Post

If the group is going smoothly, the DPS should be able to burn through normal mobs (killing them before feeling effects of pulling them) and the tank should be able to hold the golds. Typically no one should have threat issues. So by everyone's logic in here; the tank should put guard on no one. BUT that is not the case. Guard is passive, it is there for the oh-**** scenario. And in that oh **** scenario, would you rather have guard on the healer or DPS who doesn't know what he is doing. A healer death will almost guarantee a wipe. DPS death, not so much.
You aren't listening to the rest of us.

Putting guard on a healer that is going to be out of range most of the time and causing the least aggro of anyone is idiotic.

Losing a dps on a boss is just as certain to cause a wipe as losing a healer because of rage timers. Losing the healer on a trash pull usually isn't certain death any more than losing a dps would be. Often you can clean up the pull even without the healer.

You can come up with any twisted rationalization you wish, but the fact remains that you are getting the least use possible out of the ability when you are guarding the healer.

If I were in your group and you guarded a healer I would immediately drop group because I would assume you don't have a clue how to play your class.

Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
03.22.2012 , 08:14 AM | #19
Man, I am listening.

Are you?

I do understand that having guard on someone who is not pulling threat makes half of the guard stats useless. But if a tank is doing his job then this will be useless for everyone.

Range DPS, just like healers, are capable of being outside the 15m range OR within it.

Melee DPS, especially on large boss fights, are able to hit a target at their max range and still be considered Range DPS. This has been tested, as I stated before. The criteria whether a player is considered range threat (130% to pull) vs. melee threat (110% to pull) is 4 m. HOWEVER, that 4m starts at the center of a creature. Where as a melee attack is with respect to the outside radius of a creature. Thus, for single targets the melee DPS will always want to be at max range in order to generate less threat.

In the scenario where the group has a clear cut high DPS'er, then I will concede that the tank may want to consider guarding that DPS. However, imagine a raid with 1 tank, 1 off tank/DPS, 1 tank healer/DPS, 1 main healer, and 4 equally geared/skilled DPS - who should get the guard? That scenario is the same as if the guard is on the main healer (1/4 guarded DPS = 0/4 guarded DPS) It is eventually a situation that the tank will have to deal with. And in fact this is the ideal situation. The DPS will have to manage their DPS and threat generation. That means communication. The DPS have to do their high DPS bursts when the tank is ready. There are plenty of threat tools to manage this (AOE taunts, single target taunts, threat drops, etc.).

Bottom line, a tank should be able to handle threat on a single target just fine without having to put guard on a single DPS. If you do have a DPS that outshines the rest, then make sure he communicates with the tank and does his heavy hitting attacks when the tank is able to single target taunt right afterwards (thus generating even more threat for the tank). If a group successfully communicates then the guard will always be under utilized.

PS - a dead DPS does not easily wipe a raid as a dead healer. Who typically has the battle rez?

SamuraiLeo's Avatar


SamuraiLeo
03.22.2012 , 08:46 AM | #20
If you have a melee dps then guarding them makes sense however the healer in my group usually dies from non aggro attacks (ie: hm bt jedi's random leap attack while raged) and the dmg reduction it gives helps keep him alive.
regardless you should guard who u need to win, a lot of dps think they can dump all their attacks on a boss and expect you to keep threat, a good dps manages their dmg output
my teammates rarely pull aggro but i think thats because i taunt when they burst and keep intercede in my rotation