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What if Master Rajivari would have won?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
What if Master Rajivari would have won?

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
03.21.2012 , 08:15 AM | #1
During the Consular story line on Tython you learn about the ancient Jedi master Rajivari, one of the founders of the Jedi order. He fell to the dark side and tried to "purge" the Jedi order, together with his followers/apprentices. His vision of the Jedi was different than the Jedi we know.

His hologram says:

"I listened as they carefully crippled our new born order. As they argued for mediocrity. It shall not stand."

You learn a little about his philosophy, which is very interesting, I think. Especially because it seems very different to the Sith teachings. Of course, it is still dark side, but two keywords the Sith use don't appear at all: passion and free(dom).

Rajavari had a set of principles, three of these appear ingame:

2. Principle: "All life is a battle, even to the last breath"
5. Principle: "Showing mercy to an enemy creates a spiral of destruction"
8. Principle: "Sacrificing your strength is the path of a fool"

Compared to the Sith code (and also the Jedi code) these principles seem far more rationalized. I think Rajavari wanted a strong, dark side Jedi order without based on reason which rules the galaxy.

Two wookiepedia articles if you want to read more:
Master Rajivari
his principles


Now I've asked myself what would have happened if he had won and formed the Jedi order according to his vision. I can imagine two points.

1. The Jedi would have never sworne loyalty to the republic. I suppose they would have created their own Empire instead.
2. The Sith Order/Empire wouldn't have been founded. In galactic history it was founded by Dark Jedi who were exiled from the order and landed on Korriban. In Rajivari's order they would have been killed instead of exiled.


So what do you think. How would the galaxy look like if Rajivari had shaped the Jedi? Please speculate...
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

wavyhill's Avatar


wavyhill
03.21.2012 , 09:37 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
What if Master Rajivari would have won?
You mean, what would happen to Star Wars if the writers didn't have to wield objectivist morality like a spiked club? I think the Bioware writing staff would have gone completely monkey-poo with their weird fetish for "ambiguity" and other malarkey and would have incurred the wrath of Lucasarts.

In other words, I think we would have had a very short game.

Meharial's Avatar


Meharial
03.21.2012 , 10:15 AM | #3
I don't think they would have formed their own Empire, mainly because when you talk to him he doesn't seem the type to want to conquer everything. Most likely the Jedi Order would be somewhat what it is now except far more involved in politics and no longer the Republic moral guardians.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
03.21.2012 , 10:21 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by wavyhill View Post
You mean, what would happen to Star Wars if the writers didn't have to wield objectivist morality like a spiked club? I think the Bioware writing staff would have gone completely monkey-poo with their weird fetish for "ambiguity" and other malarkey and would have incurred the wrath of Lucasarts.

In other words, I think we would have had a very short game.
Sorry, maybe I worded my question in a way which could be missunderstood. Think from it in an in-universe perspective or as an alternative timeline. (Of course in the galaxy and for this game it is set what has happened in the "past" from the Jedi consulars perspective.)

What could the Jedi Consular who learned all these things about Rajivari think if he asked himself this question?

(Morally, I would consider Rajivari as evil as the Sith are, but in a very different way. He shows that the dark side isn't bound to the Sith tradition.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Meharial View Post
I don't think they would have formed their own Empire, mainly because when you talk to him he doesn't seem the type to want to conquer everything. Most likely the Jedi Order would be somewhat what it is now except far more involved in politics and no longer the Republic moral guardians.
You might be right. Do you think the Jedi would be on the republic side or would they build their own faction and ally with whom they want?
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

wavyhill's Avatar


wavyhill
03.21.2012 , 02:04 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Sorry, maybe I worded my question in a way which could be missunderstood. Think from it in an in-universe perspective or as an alternative timeline. (Of course in the galaxy and for this game it is set what has happened in the "past" from the Jedi consulars perspective.)
No. I understood what you were getting at. But flat out removing two of the cornerstones of Star Wars lore (that the Jedi are near exclusively light side force users and have been the guardians of peace in the Republic since its inception) doesn't really provoke much meaningful conversation. It's the same as if I posed the question, "What would Star Wars be like if there was no FTL travel or communications?" About the only answer that can be given is, "Well it wouldn't be bloody Star Wars then would it?"

A similar question, yet with more avenues for discussion would be something like, "What if Rajivari and his followers had escaped Tython and set up a competing dark side Jedi Order elsewhere?" This question doesn't so much remove the foundations of the story so much as shift them a bit to the left, which is what most good alternate universe stories do.

Guildrum's Avatar


Guildrum
03.21.2012 , 02:12 PM | #6
1. Well, if the Jedi Order were founded on the Dark Side teachings... I'd imagine that there'd be an outcast group of light-side "Jedi" who went out and about. Sure Rajivari may have killed them, but there had to be some who escaped. So in essence, I'd imagine that the Jedi and Sith had just switched roles, with the Jedi being Sith-like and whatever is now the Sith being more Jedi-like.

2. Now, if he had survived and created a rival order... I imagine that the Republic would never have become as powerful as they did. I'd imagine that even before the Great Hyperspace War, there'd have been tons of wars going on between light and dark. The Sith would never have really risen up to power, and until either Light Jedi or Dark Jedi were annihilated, there'd be constant friction.
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Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
03.21.2012 , 05:37 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by wavyhill View Post
No. I understood what you were getting at. But flat out removing two of the cornerstones of Star Wars lore (that the Jedi are near exclusively light side force users and have been the guardians of peace in the Republic since its inception) doesn't really provoke much meaningful conversation. It's the same as if I posed the question, "What would Star Wars be like if there was no FTL travel or communications?" About the only answer that can be given is, "Well it wouldn't be bloody Star Wars then would it?"
From time to time there would be Jedi who "see the light", I think. I guess as many as fell to the darkness in the normal story. This would put them in a similar situation to the Jedi in the OT. They would be rebels to their order and had to hide themselfs (maybe for a long time).

Quote:
A similar question, yet with more avenues for discussion would be something like, "What if Rajivari and his followers had escaped Tython and set up a competing dark side Jedi Order elsewhere?" This question doesn't so much remove the foundations of the story so much as shift them a bit to the left, which is what most good alternate universe stories do.
Of course, that would be interesting too. I agree with Gildrum, this would probably lead to neverending wars crippling the republic (if not one of them could drive the other into exile for a longer time to recover.)

The story itself opens a way something similar could have happened: Rajivari created a device that would put all his knowledge inte a future acolyte who would find the fount of Rajivari. In the story it was used on Nalen and turned him mad, but if it was used on a wise jedi instead who was really interested in, in a time whe not so many Jedi were around, he could started such a dark side Jedi Order.

Still I think it would be difficult for both orders to coexist. Rajivari's principles seem to make it necessary to destroy the other order or be destroyed. (It is said that none of his apprentices surrendered, they all wanted to die fighting instead.)


Quote: Originally Posted by Guildrum View Post
1. Well, if the Jedi Order were founded on the Dark Side teachings... I'd imagine that there'd be an outcast group of light-side "Jedi" who went out and about. Sure Rajivari may have killed them, but there had to be some who escaped. So in essence, I'd imagine that the Jedi and Sith had just switched roles, with the Jedi being Sith-like and whatever is now the Sith being more Jedi-like.
Wow, haven't thought about that possibility. Sounds cool, somehow. I have to think more about it, I just imagined the whole "are Sith really evil" topics if you turn it that way around.


EDIT: Now I asked myself about some details in this hypothetical Jedi Order Rajivari would have founded.

Would they allow romances? Falling to the dark side because of it wouldn't bother them, but on the other hand love tends to encourage self-sacrifice and "sacrifice if foolish". I'm not sure.

How would the order be organized? Would they have a council or one singe leader?

How would the training look like? Rajivari seems to have had several apprentices. Would rivalry among the students be encouraged like at the sith academy or not?
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

rebeldielan's Avatar


rebeldielan
12.01.2013 , 09:32 PM | #8
You might also think of it that if the jedi order followed the order that Revan had in mind, there might not have been any exiles. Staying all truely neutrale, embracing every emotion... No sith empire would have been created as sith pureblood rituals and dark jedi's might never interfere. Purebloods would just be a clan...

Not to mention that the profecy wouldn't be around, no balance between jedi and sith...

Just to say , that if you look at how it can be switched around, it could all also be avoided...

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BacaWicket
12.01.2013 , 10:12 PM | #9
who?

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
12.01.2013 , 10:16 PM | #10
Quote:
"Showing mercy to an enemy creates a spiral of destruction"
I disagree with that part. Nothing wrong with sentencing a Sith to life imprisonment on Belsavis rather than killing them without even giving them a trial. Justice is served by trying them in a court of law and treating them as innocent until proven guilty.
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