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Sith Assassin Madness/Deception paradigm, in need of a re-think in PvP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Sith Assassin Madness/Deception paradigm, in need of a re-think in PvP?

Haldern's Avatar


Haldern
03.21.2012 , 03:13 AM | #1
So, there are various "paradigms" for melee in PvP combat. For example, we've got:
  1. High passive defenses and low damage output. The low damage output is usually compensated for by utility (e.g. stuns, guard & taunts).
  2. High damage output, low passive defenses & "get out of dodge mechanics" (i.e. stealth).
  3. High damage output, low passive defenses & defensive cooldowns.
  4. Medium passive defenses and high damage output.
In the context of SW:TOR Assassin & Operative damage dealers clearly fit in to the type two paradigm. Marauders are somewhere between type two and three. Juggernaut damage dealers are type four. Juggernaut tanks are type one (arguably tankasins are as well - I don't know if I would call the damage output low though).

The job of a type two meleers is to carefully pick their fights, picking out important and/or squishy targets, get a quick killl on these targets and then "get out of dodge" (e.g. Force Cloak). Getting involved in large fights without "getting out of dodge" will result in the meleer getting killed quickly.

I can't help but feel this paradigm is flawed in the current state of SW:TOR in that:
  1. Warfronts revolve around choke points, such as turrets, doors and Hutballs. Type two meleers get involved in situations where they should ideally "get out of dodge" often, however, cannot due to long cooldowns.
  2. The time to run back after a respawn is relatively small, meaning that the time it takes an Assassin to "get out of dodge" and heal back up is often very similar to the respawn time. Therefore, there is very little difference between "getting out of dodge" & dying.
  3. There is very limited scope to pick and choose targets. When someone is attacking a turret/door you are forced to stop them.
Before the resident trolls start going on about "u just whine cuz ur bad, l2p"; I do well on my Assassin, I generally win more Warfronts than I lose and I win most 1v1 fights* (if I happen to get involved in them). What I am not saying is we're bad in a 1v1 or even 2v2 situation, we're in a good place there.

What I am saying is that with larger fights being common in PvP, we need a few more opportunities to "get out of dodge" or (if BW doesn't want that) our paradigm needs to shift to be more type three and less type two.

*Not claiming I am particularly skilled here, most people I fight are just awful.
Stating your opinion without explaining it with a rational argument doesn't make a good post. It makes a big pile of steaming dog poo.

Draeb's Avatar


Draeb
03.21.2012 , 04:42 AM | #2
I feel ya man. I'm a deception 'sin and most of the time I'm scoping out my prey and while everyone else is getting slaughtered I have to sit back and be patient.


I will pop out of stealth as long as my force cloak is off cool down, but if it isn't then I have to be extremely choosey.



I do awesome work once I find someone by theirselves guarding a turret or a healer off to the side but, it's not enough sustained productivity.

On my other toon (a tank), I'm in everyone's face and feel very productive through out the match. Not so much on my 'sin.


Not sure what constructive criticism I could offer because I feel the assassin is just one ability away from being OP imo.


Hopefully we can find something that would allow us to have consistent production through out these matches.

arkzehhh's Avatar


arkzehhh
03.21.2012 , 05:21 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Haldern View Post
So, there are various "paradigms" for melee in PvP combat. For example, we've got:
  1. High passive defenses and low damage output. The low damage output is usually compensated for by utility (e.g. stuns, guard & taunts).
  2. High damage output, low passive defenses & "get out of dodge mechanics" (i.e. stealth).
  3. High damage output, low passive defenses & defensive cooldowns.
  4. Medium passive defenses and high damage output.
In the context of SW:TOR Assassin & Operative damage dealers clearly fit in to the type two paradigm. Marauders are somewhere between type two and three. Juggernaut damage dealers are type four. Juggernaut tanks are type one (arguably tankasins are as well - I don't know if I would call the damage output low though).

The job of a type two meleers is to carefully pick their fights, picking out important and/or squishy targets, get a quick killl on these targets and then "get out of dodge" (e.g. Force Cloak). Getting involved in large fights without "getting out of dodge" will result in the meleer getting killed quickly.

I can't help but feel this paradigm is flawed in the current state of SW:TOR in that:
  1. Warfronts revolve around choke points, such as turrets, doors and Hutballs. Type two meleers get involved in situations where they should ideally "get out of dodge" often, however, cannot due to long cooldowns.
  2. The time to run back after a respawn is relatively small, meaning that the time it takes an Assassin to "get out of dodge" and heal back up is often very similar to the respawn time. Therefore, there is very little difference between "getting out of dodge" & dying.
  3. There is very limited scope to pick and choose targets. When someone is attacking a turret/door you are forced to stop them.
Before the resident trolls start going on about "u just whine cuz ur bad, l2p"; I do well on my Assassin, I generally win more Warfronts than I lose and I win most 1v1 fights* (if I happen to get involved in them). What I am not saying is we're bad in a 1v1 or even 2v2 situation, we're in a good place there.

What I am saying is that with larger fights being common in PvP, we need a few more opportunities to "get out of dodge" or (if BW doesn't want that) our paradigm needs to shift to be more type three and less type two.

*Not claiming I am particularly skilled here, most people I fight are just awful.
They need there def cd's / survivability buffed at minimum, weaksauce.

GONOTCH's Avatar


GONOTCH
03.21.2012 , 09:07 AM | #4
Im not so sure about buffing our survivability, I think that would throw us into the "OP" consideration. But I certainly agree with shorter cool-downs on force cloak to at least give us a chance to survive and with force shroud only lasting a few seconds a shorter cool-down wouldn't hurt there either. I hope nobody thinks force cloak is would be "OP" on shorter cool-down because it wouldn't be....if we have to force cloak and seethe....were effectively taken out of the fight for a good 15-20 seconds.

Draeb's Avatar


Draeb
03.21.2012 , 03:24 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by GONOTCH View Post
Im not so sure about buffing our survivability, I think that would throw us into the "OP" consideration. But I certainly agree with shorter cool-downs on force cloak to at least give us a chance to survive and with force shroud only lasting a few seconds a shorter cool-down wouldn't hurt there either. I hope nobody thinks force cloak is would be "OP" on shorter cool-down because it wouldn't be....if we have to force cloak and seethe....were effectively taken out of the fight for a good 15-20 seconds.


And it's also multiple times a match so it can start to add up.

Anelyn's Avatar


Anelyn
03.21.2012 , 06:11 PM | #6
Start playing madness, get good at it, then come back to this thread.

Moonchicken's Avatar


Moonchicken
03.21.2012 , 06:18 PM | #7
For madness Assassins

static discharge should have a 30yard range, and parasitism should do more healing.

AetherMcLoud's Avatar


AetherMcLoud
03.22.2012 , 03:16 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Anelyn View Post
Start playing madness, get good at it, then come back to this thread.
This. Madness is an awesome spec for warzones. Though you need to practice it. I did all the dailies a few days as madness to get a feel for the spec before using it in warzones. And now I rock as Madness. It's nowhere near as squishy as Deception.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.

Anelyn's Avatar


Anelyn
03.22.2012 , 09:52 AM | #9
Is an amazing spec, you can accomplish so much with it if you exploit it to full potency. All those dps Darkness and hybrids are a no challenge for a good madness sin. You simply ruin everyone day just playing for the team and objectives. High damage - all single target, great utility and versatility, NO PROBLEMS with force at all, ever, you don't wait to regen to use abilities, 2 very good internal dmg sources for those heavy armor / tanky stuff, very good melee for light and medium armor (as long with rest of kinetic dots).

Couple advices: don't use reck with crushing darkness, best to death field and shock. Don't open with spike unles you absolutely need to CC multiple oponents to save someone (ie: spike one, stun another, instant whirlwind 3rd, creeping terror 4th etc). And lastly, learn your versatility, you DO NOT need to be in someone face non stop to do damage or keep pressure, if you try to play it like deception you will underperform.

Haldern's Avatar


Haldern
03.22.2012 , 10:53 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Anelyn View Post
Is an amazing spec, you can accomplish so much with it if you exploit it to full potency. All those dps Darkness and hybrids are a no challenge for a good madness sin. You simply ruin everyone day just playing for the team and objectives. High damage - all single target, great utility and versatility, NO PROBLEMS with force at all, ever, you don't wait to regen to use abilities, 2 very good internal dmg sources for those heavy armor / tanky stuff, very good melee for light and medium armor (as long with rest of kinetic dots).
The issue here is not really about damage or utility, it's about survivability in situations where there is large amounts of burst. Which happens a lot in Warzones and is unavoidable.

The other class I play is (Annihilation) Marauder, which is quite similar to Madness Assassin in many ways (both good burst melee specs, self healing, dots, internal damage).

Post 1.2 I think Marauder will be in a good place balance-wise (some buffs & some nerfs), however, if you compare (Annihilation) Marauder to Madness Assassin the survivability is like night and day.

Sure, I don't have stealth but I do have Force Cammo, which "gets me out of dodge" in Warzones nearly as much as Force Cloak, and has a 45 second cooldown versus a 3 minute cooldown. Additionally, Marauders have many more survivability cooldowns. Survivability cooldowns scale with the number of people hitting you, CC doesn't.

Deception/madness aren't extremly underpowered. What I am saying is deception could do with something like:

Your assassinate has a 30% chance to reset the cooldown of your Force Cloak.
OR
Your assassinate lowers the cooldown of your Force Cloak by 30 seconds.

And madness possibly a bit more self healing or another survivability cooldown (or just low cds on existing cooldowns).
Stating your opinion without explaining it with a rational argument doesn't make a good post. It makes a big pile of steaming dog poo.