Guardian stealth nerf: talent completely removed on test; no mention in 1.2 pnotes

I'm extremely pissed off about protector nerf too because I really enjoyed looking like a super hero jumping back and forth while tanking. It made tanking a little more dynamic and it was much less boring than full def.

I think the vig/def build is still better than full def in 1.2. While we lost protector, commanding awe got lower and gives FD 15% dr. Though not nearly as good as protector, it still puts vig/def build ahead of full def in surv. We can also get stasis mastery now as a vig/def build.

Only thing def got in 1.2 was 50% threat to lolguardian slash. Even with that change, it still doesn't do as much threat as vig/def. And of course, full def doesn't have as much surv either.

You can't get stasis mastery.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#50...cGrMMhdzMZ0M.1

Think of momentum as Dust Storm and switch Stagger and Swelling Winds. Protector is Commanding Awe. Getting all the way up to Force Rush, which you have stated before as a must, means you can only get up to tier 3 of the Defense tree. As you can see, you are pretty locked in as to what you can get. You can't even get Blade barrier without sacrificing Force Rush and half of commanding awe. There's no breathing room for the hybrid tank, and it has only lost, but not gained anything over the pure spec aside from the aforementioned lackluster 15% damage mitigation buff to focused defense.

Again I state, the hybrid tank has been nerfed people.

Considering that Blade Barrier blocks only 840 damage (according to the combat logs) and Dispatch is now useable at 30%, it seems to be that the talent for +60% crit in that is far more beneficial.

840 damage is extremely underwhelming. Now if when my blade barrier gets hit and I have the new cooldown popped, it still thinks I'm "hit" and heals me, that could change things.

Do we still get protector's effect of giving us teh effect of Guardian Leap? i really loved that threat drop / multitarget dmg reduc (my target and myself) for my vig dps build. Was a unique and interesting mechanic being a dpser who can manage my threat and a nearby ally's while generating focus for myself. I know they hated the def/vig hybrids using that as a tanking ability, but move it up the tree, dont take it away from vig dps

Furthermore your statements that the Vigilance Tank is more survivable are untrue and generalized.

The Vigilance Tank
-Unremitting: 20% damage reduction for 4 seconds (nowhere near as good without protector keeping you leaping)
-Commanding Awe: 4% damage reduction plus 15% on a lackluster ability with no tanking synergy

The Defense Tank
-Blade Barrier: throws up a shield every 12s that absorbs moderate amounts of damage
-Inner Peace: 4% mitigation to elemental/internal damage, which is about half of your incoming damage, so 2% over all; also a 5 second bonus to Enure
-Shield Spec: 4% more shield chance- somewhat lackluster, true, but still a tanking ability
-Blade Barricade: You will have to give up at least point in this skill if you want to get Pacification in order to get close to the 130% Force Sweep you had before (128% with Pacification). Thats at least 2% to melee and ranged defenses.

And then both versions have Warding Call.

The defense Tank is much more survivable than the Vigilance, with more utility like cyclonic sweeps, stasis mastery, and Hilt Strike.

You can get Stasis Mastery if you wish.
It only takes 23 points in Vigilance to get Force Rush.
It takes 15 points in Defense to make 4th tier abilities available.

Those last 3 points now become a much harder choice.
You could put 2 in protector/Commanding Awe and 1 in stasis mastery.
You could put 2 in Blade Barrier and spend 1 in protector/Commanding Awe.
Or you could choose to put your points in Swelling winds in the focus tree.
Or any combination thereof.

I'm levelling a guardian on the PTS but i've only reached twenty.
The hybrid is still viable but there are some tough choices where those last 3 points go -- and for me it really depends on how useful Focused Defense is when I try it. (As I see it, it's a great oh sh*t button in combination with Defiance -- 4 free focus when stunned teamed with an ability that costs 4 focus and can be used while stunned that heals you when you get hit.)



Alodar

In the new talent tree, it will be possible for the hybrid to have both Blade Barricade (which it always did...) AND Blade Barrier, in addition to Commanding Awe/Unremitting.

So basically it's
4% internal mitigation and 4% shield chance
vs.
4% flat damage reduction (which is already better than those two combined) plus Unremitting, plus better DPS.

It may be that between Hilt Strike and upgraded Guardian Slash the 31Def build will end up with equalized threat generation, and it has some utility that the Hybrid doesn't (the extra stun, stasis mastery). But the Hybrid is still the one with the best mitigation.

Let's say I have a bar full of focus (though the only reason I would see you having this much as a Vigiliance tank is if you just used lightsaber throw, force leap, and combat focus at once). I hit FD, 4 go away, and my threat drops. I hit taunt to make up for it. My threat jumps to even with the highest person. Now I use Sundering Strike to get two more focus so I have 8. For the 10 second duration, 30% defense means I can expect about 3 out of the 10 seconds to save focus. So for 7 seconds I can expect 15% extra damage reduction. Now here comes the problem. After Sundering Strike you have to wait 1.5 seconds for the global cooldown to finish. The cooldown on sundering is 5s so you can't use it again yet. That means you have to use Strike or Sweep, or maybe even Master Strike. So you try spamming your free abilities and six seconds after popping taunt, it wears off and the aggro dump from the ticks of FD combined with the fact that you weren't able to keep up your focus generating skills means you lose aggro and the mobs leave.

Yes, you can try spamming as many focus generators as you can but the fact of the matter is you will not be able to maintain threat and use FD at the same time in an effective manner. There is no synergy there. Even you yourself have stated that Guardian threat sucks, so I'm not sure how you are expecting to use a threat dumping ability, that costs so much focus, effectively.

Furthermore your statements that the Vigilance Tank is more survivable are untrue and generalized.

The Vigilance Tank
-Unremitting: 20% damage reduction for 4 seconds (nowhere near as good without protector keeping you leaping)
-Commanding Awe: 4% damage reduction plus 15% on a lackluster ability with no tanking synergy

The Defense Tank
-Blade Barrier: throws up a shield every 12s that absorbs moderate amounts of damage
-Inner Peace: 4% mitigation to elemental/internal damage, which is about half of your incoming damage, so 2% over all; also a 5 second bonus to Enure
-Shield Spec: 4% more shield chance- somewhat lackluster, true, but still a tanking ability
-Blade Barricade: You will have to give up at least point in this skill if you want to get Pacification in order to get close to the 130% Force Sweep you had before (128% with Pacification). Thats at least 2% to melee and ranged defenses.

And then both versions have Warding Call.

The defense Tank is much more survivable than the Vigilance, with more utility like cyclonic sweeps, stasis mastery, and Hilt Strike.

You can't get stasis mastery.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#50...cGrMMhdzMZ0M.1

Think of momentum as Dust Storm and switch Stagger and Swelling Winds. Protector is Commanding Awe. Getting all the way up to Force Rush, which you have stated before as a must, means you can only get up to tier 3 of the Defense tree. As you can see, you are pretty locked in as to what you can get. You can't even get Blade barrier without sacrificing Force Rush and half of commanding awe. There's no breathing room for the hybrid tank, and it has only lost, but not gained anything over the pure spec aside from the aforementioned lackluster 15% damage mitigation buff to focused defense.

Again I state, the hybrid tank has been nerfed people.