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Hard Core Raiders : CHILL


Anilon's Avatar


Anilon
03.13.2012 , 04:02 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Bekkal View Post
Everquest (and possibly other MMOs, but this is the one we're talking about) had a system like this.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki...gression_guide
(You don't need to know what any of these raids actually are)

This is pretty simplified, but each of those "Stages" contains a number of raids from several expansions. As more raids came out, they were staggered in difficulty so that no matter what expansion you happened to join in, there was content easier than the current "top of the line".

Now, that game is 10+ years old, but you can apply the same lessons. Never do a gear reset, never introduce a hard mode. Introduce easy, medium, and difficult raids and, as more content comes out, fill in gaps between those raids and add new ones of increasing difficulty. All players eventually see all content (minus raids that are obsolete due to power creep: i.e. the "stage 0" stuff from the EQ page).

The problem with the system is the "release a raid on a specific big patch and that's THE raid for the next 6 months" style of development. If there was a lot of raid content of varying levels (and possible "super bosses" like WoW's Algalon livening up the "easy" content) your players all see/experience everything, pugging has some sort of viability, and elite raiders are back to being elite again because they saw it first.

Interesting. So in this system, with no gear reset, What happens when someone joins the game 2 years later and no one is running the first, say, 5 stages?
Champion Anilon Rintori - Level 50 Gunslinger - Sharpshooter
Nolina Rintori - Level 30 Scoundrel - Sawbones

calrian's Avatar


calrian
03.13.2012 , 04:11 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Anilon View Post
The major flaw in your second argument there, is that designing content with the intent to only have a small amount of the player base access it, is not a smart financial move.

It is my opinion that the MMO trend will continue with tiered difficulties of encounters. It is the most cost-effective way to provide multiple types and difficulties of challenges. It is why WoW changed to do that, and it is why SWTOR came ready with it.

Allow me to return the favor. In WoW vanilla, I never saw Naxx, most people did not. Did I say, "QQ I didn't see ONE instance! /unsub"? No, and neither did a VAST majority of players. They played the stuff that was down to their level. Know what I did do? I realized that I wanted to see the rest of the content, so I looked up builds, stat optimization, and learned to be the best player I could, got with a good guild, and come BC we were farming BT. Did most people kill Illidan? Nope, and they didn't unsub. My point is, just because some people can't see some content, doesn't mean they unsubscribe. A higher level instance that is more difficult gives those who are farming EV and KP something to move up to. If you can't do it yet, then stick with EV and kp and by the time you are sick of those there is no reason you won't be able to move up.

So basically what I am saying is your argument is invalid. As long as they have things to move up to, people will won't quit simply because there is an instance they can't hack it in. Know who will quit? People who are frustrated by content they can clear in one night while half the guild is drunk and that be it for raiding for the week.

Also, I'm not saying ONLY have elite instances. Have things like Karaga/EV, and if that is too easy on every difficulty, have something tiered like New instance normal mode => KP EV HM...New instance Hard mode => KP EV Nightmare. Then casuals have their **** to work on and work towards, and so do hard cores.

EDIT- I used => to mean great than/equal to, as in a higher tier instance on normal would be harder or the same as KP/EV HM and scale upward as such.
Moragath: Marauder, "Bad Motha F#cka" of Dark Inquisition

Bekkal's Avatar


Bekkal
03.13.2012 , 04:13 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Anilon View Post
Interesting. So in this system, with no gear reset, What happens when someone joins the game 2 years later and no one is running the first, say, 5 stages?
While there is no direct gear reset (in EQ there actually was a revamp of old zones to drop "reset level" gear, but EQ is a very, very different beast in terms of loot. Literally worlds apart from modern mmo's) levels often make enough of a difference that old raids can be effectively beaten/solod. As an example, in the first expansion, single groups were able to easily wipe the floor with vanilla raid content that took 6 groups to clear.

In modern environments, it would work by the very nature of later-expansion Power Creep making some old raids obsolete. I see nothing wrong with a "semi gear reset" in that a person who levels to 70, obtaining new gear and such, really has little interest in the most casual of level 50 raids, but they may find one (or several) items they really like in a "hardmode level" level 50 raid. This gives them a reason to see content they otherwise would only have visited out of curiosity (i.e. soloing when greatly overpowering the zone). If pickup single-groups are clearing raid content from 2 years ago and finding items they can use to beat entry-level raids in current content, you really aren't "wasting" any content at all.

In addition, craftable items finally gain real use in this sort of system, as they can be a great way to gear up to at least semi-modern content (i.e. the level where the more casual of guilds would actually be raiding).

Edit: Again these are heavily simplified examples with numbers off the top of my head, so let's stick to talking about the general idea as opposed to specifics.

Anilon's Avatar


Anilon
03.13.2012 , 04:17 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by calrian View Post
Allow me to return the favor. In WoW vanilla, I never saw Naxx, most people did not. Did I say, "QQ I didn't see ONE instance! /unsub"? No, and neither did a VAST majority of players. They played the stuff that was down to their level. Know what I did do? I realized that I wanted to see the rest of the content, so I looked up builds, stat optimization, and learned to be the best player I could, got with a good guild, and come BC we were farming BT. Did most people kill Illidan? Nope, and they didn't unsub. My point is, just because some people can't see some content, doesn't mean they unsubscribe. A higher level instance that is more difficult gives those who are farming EV and KP something to move up to. If you can't do it yet, then stick with EV and kp and by the time you are sick of those there is no reason you won't be able to move up.

So basically what I am saying is your argument is invalid. As long as they have things to move up to, people will won't quit simply because there is an instance they can't hack it in. Know who will quit? People who are frustrated by content they can clear in one night while half the guild is drunk and that be it for raiding for the week.

Also, I'm not saying ONLY have elite instances. Have things like Karaga/EV, and if that is too easy on every difficulty, have something tiered like New instance normal mode => KP EV HM...New instance Hard mode => KP EV Nightmare. Then casuals have their **** to work on and work towards, and so do hard cores.

EDIT- I used => to mean great than/equal to, as in a higher tier instance on normal would be harder or the same as KP/EV HM and scale upward as such.

My argument was not that people will not play. I would ask politely that you re-read. My argument was that it is not a smart *financial* decision.

I'm not sure of your background, but I personally work in software development. I'm a little segregated, being a tools developer and SCM - but I see how these things work. When I say it is not a smart financial decision, I am referring the this:

The number of players provided content vs. The $$ and Dev hours (dev being the full Des/Dev/QA cycle) to develop the content.

Your references to WoW are correct, but look at WoW now. And I would ask you - why did WoW change it's raiding paradigm? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Or because it made more financial sense?
Champion Anilon Rintori - Level 50 Gunslinger - Sharpshooter
Nolina Rintori - Level 30 Scoundrel - Sawbones

Anilon's Avatar


Anilon
03.13.2012 , 04:23 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Bekkal View Post
While there is no direct gear reset (in EQ there actually was a revamp of old zones to drop "reset level" gear, but EQ is a very, very different beast in terms of loot. Literally worlds apart from modern mmo's) levels often make enough of a difference that old raids can be effectively beaten/solod. As an example, in the first expansion, single groups were able to easily wipe the floor with vanilla raid content that took 6 groups to clear.

In modern environments, it would work by the very nature of later-expansion Power Creep making some old raids obsolete. I see nothing wrong with a "semi gear reset" in that a person who levels to 70, obtaining new gear and such, really has little interest in the most casual of level 50 raids, but they may find one (or several) items they really like in a "hardmode level" level 50 raid. This gives them a reason to see content they otherwise would only have visited out of curiosity (i.e. soloing when greatly overpowering the zone). If pickup single-groups are clearing raid content from 2 years ago and finding items they can use to beat entry-level raids in current content, you really aren't "wasting" any content at all.

In addition, craftable items finally gain real use in this sort of system, as they can be a great way to gear up to at least semi-modern content (i.e. the level where the more casual of guilds would actually be raiding).

Edit: Again these are heavily simplified examples with numbers off the top of my head, so let's stick to talking about the general idea as opposed to specifics.
Heh, I must really have the modern loot and raid paradigm "beaten into my head", as i'm having the "darndest" time getting my head around how the staging works.

Oh if only I were but a decade or so older - perhaps I would have gotten in on that so long sought after EQ experience. =)

I'm still having a hard time seeing how the content in the early "stages" doesn't become obsolete?
Champion Anilon Rintori - Level 50 Gunslinger - Sharpshooter
Nolina Rintori - Level 30 Scoundrel - Sawbones

calrian's Avatar


calrian
03.13.2012 , 04:27 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Anilon View Post
My argument was not that people will not play. I would ask politely that you re-read. My argument was that it is not a smart *financial* decision.

I'm not sure of your background, but I personally work in software development. I'm a little segregated, being a tools developer and SCM - but I see how these things work. When I say it is not a smart financial decision, I am referring the this:

The number of players provided content vs. The $$ and Dev hours (dev being the full Des/Dev/QA cycle) to develop the content.

Your references to WoW are correct, but look at WoW now. And I would ask you - why did WoW change it's raiding paradigm? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Or because it made more financial sense?
Indeed, I did misunderstand what you said. My apologies. Now then I am not saying that there needs to be an instance that 10% of people see or something, just something a LITTLE tougher. ANYONE can run EV/KP on normal. All I am suggesting is an instance where the normal mode is about as hard as the KP/EV hardmode and scales up. That would be achievable to most raiders, which I would think is a significant enough portion of the population and also tends to be the group most likely to resubscribe and to maintain their accounts over the long run. Having challenging content is why I, and many others play. I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders. If the only way to increase the challenge is to run the exact same content as we beat before, well that sucks. There needs to be something new, but that is also difficult. Not insanely so, but enough that you can't ding 50 and run in, you have to clear previous content first to gear up and learn the coordination needed.

I do not know about WoW's raiding as it stands, so I cannot speak on it. I quit just before WotLK came out, due to lacking time to play.
Moragath: Marauder, "Bad Motha F#cka" of Dark Inquisition

Anilon's Avatar


Anilon
03.13.2012 , 04:33 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by calrian View Post
Indeed, I did misunderstand what you said. My apologies. Now then I am not saying that there needs to be an instance that 10% of people see or something, just something a LITTLE tougher. ANYONE can run EV/KP on normal. All I am suggesting is an instance where the normal mode is about as hard as the KP/EV hardmode and scales up. That would be achievable to most raiders, which I would think is a significant enough portion of the population and also tends to be the group most likely to resubscribe and to maintain their accounts over the long run. Having challenging content is why I, and many others play. I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders. If the only way to increase the challenge is to run the exact same content as we beat before, well that sucks. There needs to be something new, but that is also difficult. Not insanely so, but enough that you can't ding 50 and run in, you have to clear previous content first to gear up and learn the coordination needed.

I do not know about WoW's raiding as it stands, so I cannot speak on it. I quit just before WotLK came out, due to lacking time to play.
I agree with you that difficulty needs a bit of a bump. Where we disagree is on how that bump occurs . I feel they can enhance nightmare mode in future tiers to serve this need.

And as to WoW's current raiding: As of Dragon Soul and moving forward - they have three levels of difficulty per tier, broken as follows:

Raid Finder: A very easy difficulty for random, cross-server Pugging.
Normal: A normal difficulty for organized guilds
Hard Mode: The highest difficulty - for very skilled players and guilds.

Look familiar? It should, as it is exactly how SWTOR has set themselves up. (minus the ability to cross-server).

I would like to touch on one more point you made:

"I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders."

The problem is - that usually is not the case. You are dead on with the decision they are making - basically "how many more people will keep their subscription if we develop this extra level of difficulty tier". And that is the core reason for the model above. It allows more difficulty, with less Dev time.

As I said, you and I are almost on the same page, just slightly different approaches =).
Champion Anilon Rintori - Level 50 Gunslinger - Sharpshooter
Nolina Rintori - Level 30 Scoundrel - Sawbones

calrian's Avatar


calrian
03.13.2012 , 04:44 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Anilon View Post
I agree with you that difficulty needs a bit of a bump. Where we disagree is on how that bump occurs . I feel they can enhance nightmare mode in future tiers to serve this need.

And as to WoW's current raiding: As of Dragon Soul and moving forward - they have three levels of difficulty per tier, broken as follows:

Raid Finder: A very easy difficulty for random, cross-server Pugging.
Normal: A normal difficulty for organized guilds
Hard Mode: The highest difficulty - for very skilled players and guilds.

Look familiar? It should, as it is exactly how SWTOR has set themselves up. (minus the ability to cross-server).

I would like to touch on one more point you made:

"I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders."

The problem is - that usually is not the case. You are dead on with the decision they are making - basically "how many more people will keep their subscription if we develop this extra level of difficulty tier". And that is the core reason for the model above. It allows more difficulty, with less Dev time.

As I said, you and I are almost on the same page, just slightly different approaches =).
I need to pinch myself...a logical, intelligent, good spirited debate on the internet?!

Anyway...my whole point is, at least speaking for my guild and the one that collapsed before it, many people don't want to just want the same instance over and over with a slight tweak in damage or mechanics. I do not know if you raid or not, but for us this is boring. It caused my last raid to self destruct as people quit raiding because they were sick of "Korriban was my cradle, my testing ground" or w/e every....single....week. And when we were all geared, what did we get to do? More of the same, but now with one more lightning ball! If they simply keep introducing easy instances with no options but to farm them on slightly higher difficulty, I and many others I know will not be around for long. There must be something to entice, to pursue, or it just gets stale! At least in WoW, we knew there was always something else to get to, a new instance, a new boss! A new adventure! Here..."Ok guys, Soa has more hp...oh and there is an extra ball, so same as the last 10 kills..."
Moragath: Marauder, "Bad Motha F#cka" of Dark Inquisition

Oloth's Avatar


Oloth
03.13.2012 , 04:52 PM | #19
I was just wondering after reading all of the replies here and I have to admit that I did enjoy the civilized debate, so rare nowadays especially over the internet, mostly after the point that this thread was turned into a "raiding is too easy in this game, why don't they fix it and make it like Vanilla WoW, EQ, etc..."... And I agree with you and would have backed you up and jump in the debate myself till a few days ago, cause it is TOO easy BUT... Didn't any of you read the upcoming changes in 1.2.?

It's a big read so I'll just quote a part that interests us here:

Quote:

Explosive conflict – new operation with 1.2

It is going to be harder than the current raiding content and will involve a lot more coordination and execution rather than just gear/stat checks.


Takes place on Denova, it will be a Tier 2 raid (KP and EV are tier 1 raids)
Nightmare mode of Explosive Conflict will not be launched with patch 1.2. It will come after and feature new/additional mechanics on the nightmare difficulty and offer new additional gear tier different from hardmode.

We are also renaming the "normal” mode difficulty we have right now to "story” mode to give a better reflection of the difficulty. This is not a mode for guild progression but rather a mode to experience the story and socialize.
Story mode of new raid is not too gear dependent.


Not saying it will be great, but at least there is a hope of things changing and soon. They said early April release... Give it a while, and yes most ppl didn't see Naxx in vanilla or AQ 40 but wow didn't have those 4 months upon release, was there since beta up to ICC so I do know a little of WoW history myself too.
D E C I M A
D E S P A I R
Starstorm One
EU Sith Raiding Guild

Anilon's Avatar


Anilon
03.13.2012 , 04:55 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by calrian View Post
I need to pinch myself...a logical, intelligent, good spirited debate on the internet?!

Anyway...my whole point is, at least speaking for my guild and the one that collapsed before it, many people don't want to just want the same instance over and over with a slight tweak in damage or mechanics. I do not know if you raid or not, but for us this is boring. It caused my last raid to self destruct as people quit raiding because they were sick of "Korriban was my cradle, my testing ground" or w/e every....single....week. And when we were all geared, what did we get to do? More of the same, but now with one more lightning ball! If they simply keep introducing easy instances with no options but to farm them on slightly higher difficulty, I and many others I know will not be around for long. There must be something to entice, to pursue, or it just gets stale! At least in WoW, we knew there was always something else to get to, a new instance, a new boss! A new adventure! Here..."Ok guys, Soa has more hp...oh and there is an extra ball, so same as the last 10 kills..."
I almost fell over laughing out of my chair at the SOA quote - i've thought the same thing when we kill him.

I can definitely see your point. Perhaps they could keep the instance the same, but add entire wings, bosses, etc to the harder difficulties - allowing normal mode to still follow the main storylines. That my accomplish both goals.
Champion Anilon Rintori - Level 50 Gunslinger - Sharpshooter
Nolina Rintori - Level 30 Scoundrel - Sawbones