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Hard Core Raiders : CHILL


Otani's Avatar


Otani
03.13.2012 , 01:51 PM | #1
Geez, I see nothing but whinning on this board about the end game content: this game has been out for 4 mos and you expect it to have as much content as WoW did after 5 yrs? Get real.

This game is growing. It will continue to grow. I am an end game raider as well, but I also have enjoyed the leveling story lines in this game to the point that I am looking forward to playing all 8 stories!

WoW leveling was aweful, it was painful, and the stories they had were worthless. BW has opened this game with quality leveling that, once it is tweaked, they can leave alone and concentrate on end game and pvp content. Be patient !

I'm sorry that you rushed through the content and got through all the HM's and Op's and now are wondering what to do. Stop and smell the roses, enjoy the game!

Nosdrahcir's Avatar


Nosdrahcir
03.13.2012 , 01:54 PM | #2
I've actually been leveling alts, and finding it quite enjoyable. Although after having 50s on both factions it's starting to lose its luster.
Killer: 60%, Achiever: 47%,Socializer: 47%, Explorer: 47%
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Ganrax's Avatar


Ganrax
03.13.2012 , 02:13 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Otani View Post
this game has been out for 4 mos
Quote: Originally Posted by Otani View Post
I'm sorry that you rushed through the content and got through all the HM's and Op's and now are wondering what to do. Stop and smell the roses, enjoy the game!
Not sure if trolling or just dumb.

You said it yourself, the game has been out for 4 months, even the most casual of the casuals should be 50 by now. Some of us don't enjoy rolling alts and don't consider that "endgame content". I leveled 1 alt to 50 just because I had to level up something with someone that just bought the game, I will never do it again. I hate leveling, even in this game. I don't think the stories even are all that good and I've seen 3 of them. It would make the leveling enjoyable if it was solely done by class quests but it's not. You have to repeat the same old side quests making it actually more annoying than leveling in other MMO's because you have to space bar through it all or suffer hearing the same drawn out dialogue again just to go click 10 random things out in the wild.

My complaint about endgame is not the amount but the difficulty(or rather lack there of) and how buggy it still is.

K_Schrimer's Avatar


K_Schrimer
03.13.2012 , 03:02 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Ganrax View Post
My complaint about endgame is not the amount but the difficulty(or rather lack there of) and how buggy it still is.
The bugs are the only things that make Soa a hard fight LOL. No bugs easy kill... bugs crop up; we have to fight for that kill.
This isn't the signature you are looking for.

calrian's Avatar


calrian
03.13.2012 , 03:19 PM | #5
I'm not quite a hard-core, but I am a raider (full clear EV and KP on HM). I think the main issue is that there is a lack of variety and quantity of raids at the moment. There are only two raids, and you can clear both in one night. In WoW, end game raids took two nights, even on farm (going only from up to BC here, I stopped after that), considering only three hour raids. What's more, is that it's easy to do too, only reason we haven't done nightmare mode is because there isn't much incentive to. If you want anything harder, your only option is to go up to a higher difficulty for a n negligible increase in loot, and why do that?

In all honesty there needs to be another tier of raids, that quite frankly, not everyone will be able to clear, even on Normal. Not because I feel so 1337 to exclude people, but there needs to be a raid in which the mechanics and need for organization are such that some people just won't be able to do it, because that is the only way to provide an adequate challenge for the true raiders, coupled with the sense of achievement that is part of what makes raiding such a unique experience. Killing Soa with one extra ball and some boosted hp/damage isn't the same as killing a whole new boss that you know you are one of the upper percentage who had the skill and coordination to beat. It also gives people an incentive to really try and get good, so they can see it all. Right now, I have very little reason to log on, because I can't get more gear or kill anything that isn't on farm.
Moragath: Marauder, "Bad Motha F#cka" of Dark Inquisition

Anilon's Avatar


Anilon
03.13.2012 , 03:36 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by calrian View Post
I'm not quite a hard-core, but I am a raider (full clear EV and KP on HM). I think the main issue is that there is a lack of variety and quantity of raids at the moment. There are only two raids, and you can clear both in one night. In WoW, end game raids took two nights, even on farm (going only from up to BC here, I stopped after that), considering only three hour raids. What's more, is that it's easy to do too, only reason we haven't done nightmare mode is because there isn't much incentive to. If you want anything harder, your only option is to go up to a higher difficulty for a n negligible increase in loot, and why do that?

In all honesty there needs to be another tier of raids, that quite frankly, not everyone will be able to clear, even on Normal. Not because I feel so 1337 to exclude people, but there needs to be a raid in which the mechanics and need for organization are such that some people just won't be able to do it, because that is the only way to provide an adequate challenge for the true raiders, coupled with the sense of achievement that is part of what makes raiding such a unique experience. Killing Soa with one extra ball and some boosted hp/damage isn't the same as killing a whole new boss that you know you are one of the upper percentage who had the skill and coordination to beat. It also gives people an incentive to really try and get good, so they can see it all. Right now, I have very little reason to log on, because I can't get more gear or kill anything that isn't on farm.
The major flaw in your second argument there, is that designing content with the intent to only have a small amount of the player base access it, is not a smart financial move.

It is my opinion that the MMO trend will continue with tiered difficulties of encounters. It is the most cost-effective way to provide multiple types and difficulties of challenges. It is why WoW changed to do that, and it is why SWTOR came ready with it.
Champion Anilon Rintori - Level 50 Gunslinger - Sharpshooter
Nolina Rintori - Level 30 Scoundrel - Sawbones

Bekkal's Avatar


Bekkal
03.13.2012 , 03:47 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Anilon View Post
The major flaw in your second argument there, is that designing content with the intent to only have a small amount of the player base access it, is not a smart financial move.

It is my opinion that the MMO trend will continue with tiered difficulties of encounters. It is the most cost-effective way to provide multiple types and difficulties of challenges. It is why WoW changed to do that, and it is why SWTOR came ready with it.
The best way to do it is how EQ did it back in the day - tier raids not by release date, but by difficulty, and never nerf old content to be "doable". This allows people to approach raids in an organic way instead of through some silly arcade system where they choose a difficulty level.

Anilon's Avatar


Anilon
03.13.2012 , 03:49 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Bekkal View Post
The best way to do it is how EQ did it back in the day - tier raids not by release date, but by difficulty, and never nerf old content to be "doable". This allows people to approach raids in an organic way instead of through some silly arcade system where they choose a difficulty level.
I'm not quite sure I understand. How does that address the issue I mention above regarding only a certain % of the population seeing content, and thus making it a less financially sound decision for the dev studio?

Please understand there is no hostility in this reply - I merely never played EQ and am trying to understand the system you are describing.
Champion Anilon Rintori - Level 50 Gunslinger - Sharpshooter
Nolina Rintori - Level 30 Scoundrel - Sawbones

Valtrim's Avatar


Valtrim
03.13.2012 , 03:55 PM | #9
IMO, part of the problem with PvE endgame is that there isn't quite enough to do beyond the ops themselves. While it was definitely a time sink, things like resist gear (fire for MC, shadow for Naxx/Shahraz, etc) gave WoW raiders something to do outside raid time. Tionese gear could have sort of taken the place of the tier 0 and .5 dungeon sets if Columi had been raid-only gear. Finally, attunements provided a narrative build-up to a raid and, given how verbose SWTOR tends to be, could have been pretty cool.

In a game as easy as this, I can't see attunements or other gear grinds being a negative; even in WoW, they were only removed when they began to provide a serious hindrance to progressed guilds getting new blood into high-tier raids. If people with few hours per week to play don't want them, then simply require them for hard and nightmare modes.

Other ways to spend time out of raid at max level would be welcome, too, for those who don't feel like regularly doing warzones.

Bekkal's Avatar


Bekkal
03.13.2012 , 03:59 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Anilon View Post
I'm not quite sure I understand. How does that address the issue I mention above regarding only a certain % of the population seeing content, and thus making it a less financially sound decision for the dev studio?

Please understand there is no hostility in this reply - I merely never played EQ and am trying to understand the system you are describing.
Everquest (and possibly other MMOs, but this is the one we're talking about) had a system like this.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki...gression_guide
(You don't need to know what any of these raids actually are)

This is pretty simplified, but each of those "Stages" contains a number of raids from several expansions. As more raids came out, they were staggered in difficulty so that no matter what expansion you happened to join in, there was content easier than the current "top of the line".

Now, that game is 10+ years old, but you can apply the same lessons. Never do a gear reset, never introduce a hard mode. Introduce easy, medium, and difficult raids and, as more content comes out, fill in gaps between those raids and add new ones of increasing difficulty. All players eventually see all content (minus raids that are obsolete due to power creep: i.e. the "stage 0" stuff from the EQ page).

The problem with the system is the "release a raid on a specific big patch and that's THE raid for the next 6 months" style of development. If there was a lot of raid content of varying levels (and possible "super bosses" like WoW's Algalon livening up the "easy" content) your players all see/experience everything, pugging has some sort of viability, and elite raiders are back to being elite again because they saw it first.