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Color Wars!


Dezzi's Avatar


Dezzi
03.08.2012 , 06:02 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Toonimator View Post
There's no bending of SW canon going on. Thousands of years before the films, and not quite a decade AFTER the films, colors were completely unrestricted. This has been the 'lore' for decades, and is STILL the lore in new comics and novels set in those eras. Sith tend to favor red, but they are not restricted to it. Jedi have always favored blue and green, even in Luke's NJO, but many other colors are common. And purple has only been a rarity in ONE place: the Prequels. Before AOTC, at least 2 members of the Jedi Council had purple blades. Two of Han & Leia's children used purple sabers. KOTOR saw purple crystals dropping all over the place.

There is ZERO lore that says purple should be rare in the era of SWTOR, particularly with all the NPCs sporting them. It's whining movie-only fans that are complaining that color restrictions should be restored; it's fans of Star Wars in its entirety--comics, books, and games included--that want much more variety among saber colors. And the bit about Exar Kun and the player not being significant enough to overshadow his feats; I beg to differ. According to the player stories in the game, Consulars, Knights, Inquisitors, and Warriors are all EXCEPTIONAL. We are playing the next Exar Kuns, the next Revans, the next Lukes. In a story-driven game, that absolutely takes precedence over the fact that there's 50 'next Revans' running around the Fleet at any given time, even if they're ALL running with purple saber blades.

The bottom line is that saber color in the EU--where this game takes place--is equal parts tradition and preference. And there are other ways to make alignment choices count; saber color shouldn't be one of them.
As you say...

I think something being forgotten or looked past is the fact that if we are to assume that colors aren't restricted, they are more or less used exclusively by specific groups. You use the word "tradition" to clarify this--which I would agree with.

That said, we as players don't live by those traditions and have no semblance of understanding how deeply binding those traditions might be. Meaning, if I am a Sith of any degree, what are the chances that I break from tradition and use blue saber crystals? On the other side, how likely am I as a Jedi knight to break from tradition and possibly earn the mistrust of my fellow Jedi by using a red saber crystal?

We have answers to those questions in the form of cross-faction color usage being a rarity.

The point is, whether or not there are hard-coded restrictions, there are consequences for breaking with traditions within the universe we are playing. A player should have their choice, but there should be consequences for those actions (isn't that part of story?).

So when a Jedi struts into the Senate on Coruscant and ignites his red lightsaber, I think more than a few heads should turn--and a very admonishing conversation be had with Satele. On the other side of the coin, when a Sith marches into Baras' chambers and shows off his blue or green lightsaber, I think a few minutes at the mercy of Force lightning might shed some light on the gravity of choosing to break with custom.

I guess my point is that using "tradition not restriction" as an argument is not a completely sturdy position to stand on; tradition implies understanding of the tradition, and we simply don't--despite our knowledge of lore (the difference between knowledge and wisdom).

I think the hard-coded restrictions help provide a sense of what these traditions are.
Ebon Hawk (RP)
Peace | Knowledge | Serenity | the Force
I'm a Jedi because the galaxy needs Jedi.

Asturias's Avatar


Asturias
03.08.2012 , 06:07 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Ganrax View Post
You're own argument for the restrictions(which is often repeated) defeats itself. It keeps being thrown around that "every Jedi is now using a red lightsaber" due to the restriction being lifted. Now this in itself shows that the majority of the people(at least according to the people for the restriction) playing the game would rather have what color crystal they want as opposed to being restricted, while the minority being the people that are angry at the fact that it is being done. If this is indeed the case then it just shows that Bioware is going with the smart business choice and keeping the MAJORITY happy, not the vocal minority that must control how other characters look so they can enjoy their game, completely justifying the removal of the color crystal restriction.

If so many people thought the same way as you did about factions/alignment using certain colors you wouldn't be complaining about it in the first place as there would be very few people that would want to use a different color.
My argument is that by taking away the restriction of colored crystals will ruin the unqueness of the two factions. This is the same crap Sony did but except it was the unlocking of the Jedi Class. Star Wars fan left that crap tastic idea by canceling in droves.
The greatest Star Wars story, that was ever told.
A hunter, a seeker, and a killer for hire
Asturias (Lonestar Legacy)
Jung Ma RP PvP

UchihaMatt's Avatar


UchihaMatt
03.08.2012 , 06:09 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Colryn View Post
I agree 100% with the OP about color crystals and their restrictions to either light or dark. BW needs to stop trying to see how far they can bend the SW canon just to make a quick buck to satisfy whining non-SW fans.

If said players don't like Star Wars lore, then they should just deal with it or play a non-Star Wars game.
Lucas has stated before that the only things that are canon are the films and the TV series, everything else is just fan fiction. So with that in mind, it's great that Bioware gives us the tools to create our own stories and role play the way we want in a role playing game.

Asturias's Avatar


Asturias
03.08.2012 , 06:10 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Dezzi View Post
As you say...

I think something being forgotten or looked past is the fact that if we are to assume that colors aren't restricted, they are more or less used exclusively by specific groups. You use the word "tradition" to clarify this--which I would agree with.

That said, we as players don't live by those traditions and have no semblance of understanding how deeply binding those traditions might be. Meaning, if I am a Sith of any degree, what are the chances that I break from tradition and use blue saber crystals? On the other side, how likely am I as a Jedi knight to break from tradition and possibly earn the mistrust of my fellow Jedi by using a red saber crystal?

We have answers to those questions in the form of cross-faction color usage being a rarity.

The point is, whether or not there are hard-coded restrictions, there are consequences for breaking with traditions within the universe we are playing. A player should have their choice, but there should be consequences for those actions (isn't that part of story?).

So when a Jedi struts into the Senate on Coruscant and ignites his red lightsaber, I think more than a few heads should turn--and a very admonishing conversation be had with Satele. On the other side of the coin, when a Sith marches into Baras' chambers and shows off his blue or green lightsaber, I think a few minutes at the mercy of Force lightning might shed some light on the gravity of choosing to break with custom.

I guess my point is that using "tradition not restriction" as an argument is not a completely sturdy position to stand on; tradition implies understanding of the tradition, and we simply don't despite our--knowledge of lore (the difference between knowledge and wisdom).

I think the hard-coded restrictions help provide a sense of what these traditions are.
Well said and I couldn't have said it better.
The greatest Star Wars story, that was ever told.
A hunter, a seeker, and a killer for hire
Asturias (Lonestar Legacy)
Jung Ma RP PvP

JustTed's Avatar


JustTed
03.08.2012 , 06:10 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Asturias View Post
My argument is that be taking away the pazzaz of the faction restricted colored crystals will ruin the unqueness of the two factions. This is the same crap Sony did but except it was the unlocking of the Jedi Class. Star Wars fan left that crap tastic idea by canceling in droves.
Bye.

Appealing to Star Wars "lore"? Really? C'mon. Star Wars is a joke now in the post prequel world. It's garbage.

GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
03.08.2012 , 06:14 PM | #26
I love the 'synthetic crystals are always red and Sith only' argument.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_...9;s_lightsaber

Luke learned how to make synthetic crystals through writings by Obi-Wan. Granted this was a post Ruusan teaching when lightsaber crystal abundance began to go into decline, but the principle is the same.

While Sith traditionally use Synthetic crystals, they clearly aren't canonicly colour or alignment restricted in their creation.

Revenaught's Avatar


Revenaught
03.08.2012 , 06:17 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Asturias View Post
Synthetic Crystals, itís a Sith Thang!

Though synthetic crystals were ordinarily unsuitable for use in light sabers, the Sith discovered that they could create synth-crystals that were energized, magnetized, and modified with the power of the dark side of the Force in special furnaces, causing the crystal to glow in harmonic vibration. As a result of their artificial origins, synthetic crystals created more powerful light saber blades and could be more easily augmented. Also, their common usage by Sith and other Darksiders after this discovery caused synthetic crystals to become something of a staple among such groups, and their use among Jedi was strongly discouraged.

Most synthetic crystals were red, a result of the forging process, and oftentimes the initiate's intentional manipulations, as most individuals who utilized synthetic crystals were Darksiders. The red-hued light saber blades generated by such crystals were often nicknamed "bloodshine blades". However, synth-crystals could be made in any color, requiring only slight adjustments of the creation process and special manipulations through the Force during the forging. Jedi frowned on the use of synthetic crystals in lightsabers, most individuals who utilized colors other than red were Darksiders looking to hide their affiliations

1. But Exar Kun had a blue light saber!
Explanation: The lightsaber of Jedi Knight Exar Kun was a device that was initially created to produce a single beam of blue-white energy. However, upon his ascension to Dark Lord of the Sith, Kun redesigned his lightsaber based on instructions hidden within an antiquated Sith holocron. The finished product was a double-bladed weapon imbued with dark side energy, from which sapphire blades materialized up to 1.5 meters from either end of the hilt.
(Exar Kun had learned long lost secrets from a holocron that forged the look but it is a synthetically made crystal infused with the dark side of the force.) A rarity your character is not significant enough to overshadow and take away the iconic look of this character.

That is an assumption tbat isn't necessarily correct. The text you quoted only says the weapon was infused with the dark side, nowhere in it did it say he made a new blue synthetic crystal for the new weapon.

2. But Anakin used his Blue Light Saber in EP3!
Explanation: Anakin just turned to the Dark Side of the Force and was immediately sent to kill the remaining separatist and exterminate the Jedi order. He did not have time, I repeat he did not have time to make a Synthetic Crystal.
(What you see in the movies and a design restriction in a video game is two different things. There is a reason why these three were restricted because BioWARE knows they are the iconic colors of the two factions.)

Doesn't matter. He was Sith and definitely dark side and using a natural blue crystal with no restrictions. It happened closing your eyes and going lalalalalala doesnt change that.

3. But Mace Windu had a purple colored crystal!
In the Prequel Trilogy, Mace Windu's unique purple lightsaber was a functional change but Samuel L. Jackson, who played Windu, asked for a lightsaber to match his favorite color, and the distinct shade helped his character stand out on the battlefield from the red, blue, and green of the other lightsabers.
A rarity, nuff said!


Jedi used natural crystals!
According to The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force, lightsaber colors originally indicated a Jedi's role in the Order. For example, Jedi Consulars, who focused on non-violence, carried green lightsabers to symbolize peace. Jedi Guardians, on the other hand, carried blue lightsabers as a symbol of uniformity and solidarity.
The lack of lightsaber color variation in the movies is a lack of colored crystals. According to Jedi vs. Sith, the Empire (Past/Present/Future) quarantined or destroyed many sources of lightsaber crystals. This left the Jedi with mostly Ilum crystals, which can only produce green or blue blades.
This time frame is long before the Empire destroyed the access to lightsaber crystals in colors other than green and blue.


Conclusion
Red/Blue/Green needs to be restricted to their respective factions. The symbols of the big three colors are iconic to the faction which they have been displayed upon. Posters, movies, books, cartoons, toys and comics is proof enough that Red is the faction color of the Sith, while Blue/Green is the faction color of the Jedi, regardless of a select few iconic characters.


Flame away!

My replies in blue. None of what you posted is a valid reason to limit players options on how they wish to play their characters.
Mal - Define interesting.

Wash - Oh God. Oh God. We're all gonna die?

Mal - This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence. So we may experience some slight, turbulence...and then explode.

Lord_Scythe's Avatar


Lord_Scythe
03.08.2012 , 06:19 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Asturias View Post
Synthetic Crystals, itís a Sith Thang!

Though synthetic crystals were ordinarily unsuitable for use in light sabers, the Sith discovered that they could create synth-crystals that were energized, magnetized, and modified with the power of the dark side of the Force in special furnaces, causing the crystal to glow in harmonic vibration. As a result of their artificial origins, synthetic crystals created more powerful light saber blades and could be more easily augmented. Also, their common usage by Sith and other Darksiders after this discovery caused synthetic crystals to become something of a staple among such groups, and their use among Jedi was strongly discouraged.

Most synthetic crystals were red, a result of the forging process, and oftentimes the initiate's intentional manipulations, as most individuals who utilized synthetic crystals were Darksiders. The red-hued light saber blades generated by such crystals were often nicknamed "bloodshine blades". However, synth-crystals could be made in any color, requiring only slight adjustments of the creation process and special manipulations through the Force during the forging. Jedi frowned on the use of synthetic crystals in lightsabers, most individuals who utilized colors other than red were Darksiders looking to hide their affiliations

1. But Exar Kun had a blue light saber!
Explanation: The lightsaber of Jedi Knight Exar Kun was a device that was initially created to produce a single beam of blue-white energy. However, upon his ascension to Dark Lord of the Sith, Kun redesigned his lightsaber based on instructions hidden within an antiquated Sith holocron. The finished product was a double-bladed weapon imbued with dark side energy, from which sapphire blades materialized up to 1.5 meters from either end of the hilt.
(Exar Kun had learned long lost secrets from a holocron that forged the look but it is a synthetically made crystal infused with the dark side of the force.) A rarity your character is not significant enough to overshadow and take away the iconic look of this character.

2. But Anakin used his Blue Light Saber in EP3!
Explanation: Anakin just turned to the Dark Side of the Force and was immediately sent to kill the remaining separatist and exterminate the Jedi order. He did not have time, I repeat he did not have time to make a Synthetic Crystal.
(What you see in the movies and a design restriction in a video game is two different things. There is a reason why these three were restricted because BioWARE knows they are the iconic colors of the two factions.)

3. But Mace Windu had a purple colored crystal!
In the Prequel Trilogy, Mace Windu's unique purple lightsaber was a functional change but Samuel L. Jackson, who played Windu, asked for a lightsaber to match his favorite color, and the distinct shade helped his character stand out on the battlefield from the red, blue, and green of the other lightsabers.
A rarity, nuff said!

Jedi used natural crystals!
According to The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force, lightsaber colors originally indicated a Jedi's role in the Order. For example, Jedi Consulars, who focused on non-violence, carried green lightsabers to symbolize peace. Jedi Guardians, on the other hand, carried blue lightsabers as a symbol of uniformity and solidarity.
The lack of lightsaber color variation in the movies is a lack of colored crystals. According to Jedi vs. Sith, the Empire (Past/Present/Future) quarantined or destroyed many sources of lightsaber crystals. This left the Jedi with mostly Ilum crystals, which can only produce green or blue blades.

Conclusion
Red/Blue/Green needs to be restricted to their respective factions. The symbols of the big three colors are iconic to the faction which they have been displayed upon. Posters, movies, books, cartoons, toys and comics is proof enough that Red is the faction color of the Sith, while Blue/Green is the faction color of the Jedi, regardless of a select few iconic characters.


Flame away!
Couldn't post on one of the several other post about this topic?

The original alignment restrictions were stupid and I for one am glad they are gone.

I would have been happier to have seen class restrictions. But am very happy to see no restrictions.

Why green? Green is not an original color for lightsabers.

Green was added during editing:

source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

"Lightsabers depicted in the first two released films, A New Hope and Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, had blades that were colored either blue (for the Jedi) or red (for the Sith). This color difference was a decision during post-production when the lightsaber blades were being rotoscoped, as the original blades were simply white. In Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker's newly-constructed lightsaber was colored blue during the initial editing of the film, and appears so in both an early movie trailer and the official theatrical posters, but in the final film, it was ultimately colored green in order to better stand out against the blue sky of Tatooine in outdoor scenes. It also appeared as green in re-release posters. "

So Green is iconic because it did not show up in the blue sky? It was added as an after thought because the true iconic color did not show up.

It is a matter of choice. Lightsabers are a reflection of those who use them and should be allowed to be customized as people see fit.
To quote well me "Go be stupid on your own time!"

Colryn's Avatar


Colryn
03.08.2012 , 06:24 PM | #29
It is too bad some gamers just can't accept what is conventional knowledge when it comes to something as simple as color crystals.

If BW isn't able to maintain the uniqueness that is a part of light and dark factions then I won't have a problem spending my money elsewhere because by that point it isn't Star Wars anymore.

On the same note the same can be said if BW maintains the uniqueness. Then those who whine about wanting to use lightside colors on an empire character should follow the same path.

Toonimator's Avatar


Toonimator
03.08.2012 , 06:24 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Dezzi View Post
As you say...

I think something being forgotten or looked past is the fact that if we are to assume that colors aren't restricted, they are more or less used exclusively by specific groups. You use the word "tradition" to clarify this--which I would agree with.

That said, we as players don't live by those traditions and have no semblance of understanding how deeply binding those traditions might be. Meaning, if I am a Sith of any degree, what are the chances that I break from tradition and use blue saber crystals? On the other side, how likely am I as a Jedi knight to break from tradition and possibly earn the mistrust of my fellow Jedi by using a red saber crystal?

We have answers to those questions in the form of cross-faction color usage being a rarity.

The point is, whether or not there are hard-coded restrictions, there are consequences for breaking with traditions within the universe we are playing. A player should have their choice, but there should be consequences for those actions (isn't that part of story?).

So when a Jedi struts into the Senate on Coruscant and ignites his red lightsaber, I think more than a few heads should turn--and a very admonishing conversation be had with Satele. On the other side of the coin, when a Sith marches into Baras' chambers and shows off his blue or green lightsaber, I think a few minutes at the mercy of Force lightning might shed some light on the gravity of choosing to break with custom.

I guess my point is that using "tradition not restriction" as an argument is not a completely sturdy position to stand on; tradition implies understanding of the tradition, and we simply don't--despite our knowledge of lore (the difference between knowledge and wisdom).

I think the hard-coded restrictions help provide a sense of what these traditions are.
One problem with this argument is that the restrictions were NEVER hard-coded the way you described. They were hard-coded to alignment, not faction. And I think Empire players would be up in arms if suddenly they could ONLY use red for most of the game. There's no iconic 'second color' for Sith; more Jedi than Sith probably used orange sabers in the EU, same with purple and yellow.

Again, our characters' stories tell us we're exceptional, the strongest Force-users or most talented Force-users seen in years. Whether we go dark or light, 'tradition' is something we should be able to CHOOSE to follow or abandon. Most of my Jedi abandon robes, because I don't care for how most look in the game (at least, until hoods becomes an option). Most use yellow sabers, since they're fairly easy to make and look great. I'd make orange crystals for my Sentinel if I could (not enough comms to get a decent-level orange-crystal saber), or purple, but sadly he's not max level.

Which brings me to:
Quote: Originally Posted by Asturias View Post
According to the EU (Expanded universe) This is how mace got his Purple crystal.
"In 58 BBY, a young Mace Windu was sent to Hurikane on a mission as a Padawan. In exchange for helping the stone-encrusted native species, Windu was given a handful of the rare violet Hurrikane crystals, which he used to create his unique electrum lightsaber."

Its a rare crystal of all eras.
I don't see how the story of Mace getting his crystal automatically means it's rare in ALL eras. The Hurrikane crystals are rare. Mace's lightsaber is unique in its era. But that little entry doesn't affect KOTOR era, TOR era, NJO era, LOTF, FOTJ, LEGACY, or any other era outside the ~1000 years between the Ruusan Reformations and the end of Episode VI.

Anakin Solo and Jaina Solo both used purple sabers a couple decades after the movies. Other Jedi in Luke's order also used purple. Tons of NPCs in TOR use purple, and just 300 years earlier purple was a fairly common drop on the journeys of Revan and the Exile.

They are NOT rare in all eras, as any fan who actually enjoys Star Wars BEYOND just the movies could likely tell you.