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Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Imperial Agent > Operative
Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.
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Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
03.18.2012 , 04:39 PM | #341
Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
Considering the majority of his posts go through the CSRs to begin with so they can be translated into the other languages... I doubt it.
I guess George plays a sorc then.

Ahh reminds me so much of wow where the devs played mages

ShannaRZ's Avatar


ShannaRZ
03.18.2012 , 10:08 PM | #342
I actually read through this whole mess. My head now hurts, and I blame, well... me, for reading what I should have left to the trolls.

The arguments about assassins and snipers and other stuff in this thread: Learn how to read and respond appropriately, or else get ignored. I could talk about bumblebees, but it would have just as much relevance.

The OP was overstated; GZ's reaction was spot-on, but some people interpreted it to be inflammatory instead of positive, so it should never have been made in the first place.

HOWEVER, there were some good points brought up amongst all the math and statistics, cast sequences and examples. Too many of them were narrowly construed, and mis-targeted. Someone talks about operative PvP viability in healing and utility and someone else replies with statistics and cast orders showing how they are completely viable in hard modes and operations, which got countered by people talking about sorcs and operatives in nightmare mode, and then more pvp discussion about merc healing and aoes in comparison with operatives who are hybrid spec'd. Good grief.

Face it, Sorcs are easier to play and have far greater utility when in healing spec than operatives. If you disagree, either you have never played both in heal spec, really really rock at operative heals, or just don't know what you're talking about. Some of us would like to fix this (the balance), but we don't want to be sorcs or mercs, we want to be operatives. Getting there is going to require a lot of hard work, a lot of balance discussion, and enormous parsing of the new 1.2 combat logs.

We will need practical examples and proof, not opinion and supposition, and certainly a lot less flames. I also have yet to hear (at least in this thread) well thought out solutions that are not just knee-jerk nerf reactions.

First, to the practical examples.

In a PVE situation, given a tank with 20k health and a single target boss that's beating on him at a rate of 1k per second, how would a sorc heal? How would a merc heal? How would an operative heal? Considering the protracted nature of PVE fights, we can assume a 5 minute duration (300s) and will therefore have to include energy management, but not outside influences like aoe's, adds, healer interrupts, and things that are impossible to judge but that occur frequently enough that we all just deal with them.

Its easy to tell (with the above) that all three major healing classes can handle this with ease, and anyone proficient enough in the class can provide a cast order; with relatively few exceptions, we can then analyze the results and determine which, if any class is superior. I'd gamble that none will be any better, and are we can therefore determine (with the limited example given) that all healers are "balanced".

In a PVP situation in Huttball, given a ball carrier with 16k health and incoming damage at 4k per second, how would a sorc heal? How would a merc heal? How would an operative heal? Lets complicate it by stating that the ball carrier is 60m away from the healer at the time he catches the ball. Add to this that the healer is going to be interrupted once every 5 seconds, but leave out the stuns and other things that would keep him from healing his target.

It is no longer easy to say that all three major healing classes can handle this equally. In fact, it is quite easy to determine that a sorc will outperform his rivals, at least in the first 10 seconds of the fight -- which is ALL THAT MATTERS in Huttball, as a ball carrier will score, pass, or die if time extends much beyond that.

Two factors make my last statement valid, given the Huttball example. One, the sorc's ability to close the distance and get in healing range almost immediately. Two, the bubble he pops on the ball carrier stops damage in its tracks and gives him the opportunity to cast a second if not a third spell immediately afterwards. And, given the possibility that the sorc is closer to the goal line than the ball carrier, he has the additional ability to yank him 30m toward the goal and out of (perhaps) harms way for a short time. An operative or merc is still running to get in range when the sorc is on his second spell, and neither of them have any way to stop damage completely, albeit for a brief span of time. Energy management is not an issue. The fight is over in 10 seconds.

Not everything is as easy and straightforward as PVE. Not everything in PVP is Huttball. We need to examine these (and many more) examples, using the 1.2 logs, in order to prove our point that there are balance issues that need to be addressed. Arguing about it only makes my head hurt, but does little to accomplish this goal.

Achyllis's Avatar


Achyllis
03.18.2012 , 10:20 PM | #343
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey,

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

Georg


edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!
What he said ^^

What he meant: Dear Operatives - you do not appear in any films and are neither Star Warsy nor iconic. We needed a mirror for Han Solo so be glad you got an interesting story. Now quit whining and roll a force user like we want you to. Fewer IAs means less to worry about when balancing.

Who knew all these people actually wanted to PvP? Why are you not Jedi or Darth Maul?
The Harbinger server
Sneakey - Scoundrel healer, refugee from Bloodfin in SWG

Stories completed: Operative, Sorcerer, Scoundrel, Mercenary, Juggernaut, Trooper

Ojas's Avatar


Ojas
03.19.2012 , 01:00 AM | #344
I could care less if Georg was trying to be condescending to me. Anybody who has read my posts know I am not asking why Operatives do not have the same system as Sorcerers.

They are presented as evidence for the fact that Sorcerers are superior in almost every aspect of healing in the game.
What better way to defend that argument but by breaking down the classes to their basest elements and objectively compare them.

One metric is how much force they can regenerate over a given period of time, and how that amount regenerated is relative to the actual cost of the ability.

SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.20.2012 , 09:36 AM | #345
Quote: Originally Posted by ShannaRZ View Post
I actually read through this whole mess. My head now hurts, and I blame, well... me, for reading what I should have left to the trolls.

The arguments about assassins and snipers and other stuff in this thread: Learn how to read and respond appropriately, or else get ignored. I could talk about bumblebees, but it would have just as much relevance.

The OP was overstated; GZ's reaction was spot-on, but some people interpreted it to be inflammatory instead of positive, so it should never have been made in the first place.

HOWEVER, there were some good points brought up amongst all the math and statistics, cast sequences and examples. Too many of them were narrowly construed, and mis-targeted. Someone talks about operative PvP viability in healing and utility and someone else replies with statistics and cast orders showing how they are completely viable in hard modes and operations, which got countered by people talking about sorcs and operatives in nightmare mode, and then more pvp discussion about merc healing and aoes in comparison with operatives who are hybrid spec'd. Good grief.

Face it, Sorcs are easier to play and have far greater utility when in healing spec than operatives. If you disagree, either you have never played both in heal spec, really really rock at operative heals, or just don't know what you're talking about. Some of us would like to fix this (the balance), but we don't want to be sorcs or mercs, we want to be operatives. Getting there is going to require a lot of hard work, a lot of balance discussion, and enormous parsing of the new 1.2 combat logs.

We will need practical examples and proof, not opinion and supposition, and certainly a lot less flames. I also have yet to hear (at least in this thread) well thought out solutions that are not just knee-jerk nerf reactions.

First, to the practical examples.

In a PVE situation, given a tank with 20k health and a single target boss that's beating on him at a rate of 1k per second, how would a sorc heal? How would a merc heal? How would an operative heal? Considering the protracted nature of PVE fights, we can assume a 5 minute duration (300s) and will therefore have to include energy management, but not outside influences like aoe's, adds, healer interrupts, and things that are impossible to judge but that occur frequently enough that we all just deal with them.

Its easy to tell (with the above) that all three major healing classes can handle this with ease, and anyone proficient enough in the class can provide a cast order; with relatively few exceptions, we can then analyze the results and determine which, if any class is superior. I'd gamble that none will be any better, and are we can therefore determine (with the limited example given) that all healers are "balanced".

In a PVP situation in Huttball, given a ball carrier with 16k health and incoming damage at 4k per second, how would a sorc heal? How would a merc heal? How would an operative heal? Lets complicate it by stating that the ball carrier is 60m away from the healer at the time he catches the ball. Add to this that the healer is going to be interrupted once every 5 seconds, but leave out the stuns and other things that would keep him from healing his target.

It is no longer easy to say that all three major healing classes can handle this equally. In fact, it is quite easy to determine that a sorc will outperform his rivals, at least in the first 10 seconds of the fight -- which is ALL THAT MATTERS in Huttball, as a ball carrier will score, pass, or die if time extends much beyond that.

Two factors make my last statement valid, given the Huttball example. One, the sorc's ability to close the distance and get in healing range almost immediately. Two, the bubble he pops on the ball carrier stops damage in its tracks and gives him the opportunity to cast a second if not a third spell immediately afterwards. And, given the possibility that the sorc is closer to the goal line than the ball carrier, he has the additional ability to yank him 30m toward the goal and out of (perhaps) harms way for a short time. An operative or merc is still running to get in range when the sorc is on his second spell, and neither of them have any way to stop damage completely, albeit for a brief span of time. Energy management is not an issue. The fight is over in 10 seconds.

Not everything is as easy and straightforward as PVE. Not everything in PVP is Huttball. We need to examine these (and many more) examples, using the 1.2 logs, in order to prove our point that there are balance issues that need to be addressed. Arguing about it only makes my head hurt, but does little to accomplish this goal.
You made a lot of valid points in your post, however you also have to realize that not every class is supposed to be balanced to be able to do the same things as everyone else. On my Sorc healer, I have vary rarely used my pull ability in combat situations. But I also can not put up the big numbers that my Merc healer can put up. Yes I can sustain longer durration healing multiple targets, but my big heals are crits for 2500 if I am lucky, on my Merc that is normal with big crits in the 3000 range. Also my Merc can heal more with more mobility then my Sorc can, but I still get frustrated by people moving away from objectives and me when I am healing them.

I don't know how well the Operative/Scoundrel healing spec is, I just don't like playing as one and can't do it long enough to find out when it starts to get good, Sniper though I do enjoy.
Healing, damage, tanking, it doesn't matter. I do it all. I have been doing it while winning in PVP since Beta.
My propsed changes to Loot Rules.

Grapenut's Avatar


Grapenut
03.20.2012 , 10:39 AM | #346
Some devs can't take a critical eye to their work. See it all the time where I work.

solikepoison's Avatar


solikepoison
03.20.2012 , 06:08 PM | #347
The classes and game is balanced, Theyre not gonna let a level 50 smuggler easily wipe out a level 50 sith player, that would be unbalanced. If a smuggler could kill a sith master with ease, thats unbalanced and unrealistic.

wishihadaname's Avatar


wishihadaname
03.20.2012 , 10:22 PM | #348
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
You made a lot of valid points in your post, however you also have to realize that not every class is supposed to be balanced to be able to do the same things as everyone else. On my Sorc healer, I have vary rarely used my pull ability in combat situations. But I also can not put up the big numbers that my Merc healer can put up. Yes I can sustain longer durration healing multiple targets, but my big heals are crits for 2500 if I am lucky, on my Merc that is normal with big crits in the 3000 range. Also my Merc can heal more with more mobility then my Sorc can, but I still get frustrated by people moving away from objectives and me when I am healing them.

I don't know how well the Operative/Scoundrel healing spec is, I just don't like playing as one and can't do it long enough to find out when it starts to get good, Sniper though I do enjoy.
As a lethality op with only 5 points in the healing tree I can crit for 3.6k without my crit relic and for upwards of 4.2k with it. That said, I can only cast said heal about 5 times before i'm utterly out of energy but i've seen OP healers crit well past 5k in a single 2s induction dart when pressed. If anything, I would be willing to bet that the OP healers is capable of the most burst and mobility out of all the healing classes since 4/7 of our heals can be done on the run.

Other benefits we have that mercs/sorc don't is a very fast and cheap clense, superior HoTs, an instant, free, GCD ignoring ultimate debuff remover, restealth, and the ability to CC 2 targets at a time (1 non droid with sleep dart and 1 droid with hax). Most of this doesn't count for much in raids but its great for pvp, questing, flashpoints and heroics.

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
03.20.2012 , 10:59 PM | #349
Quote: Originally Posted by wishihadaname View Post
Other benefits we have that mercs/sorc don't is a very fast and cheap clense, superior HoTs, an instant, free, GCD ignoring ultimate debuff remover, restealth, and the ability to CC 2 targets at a time (1 non droid with sleep dart and 1 droid with hax). Most of this doesn't count for much in raids but its great for pvp, questing, flashpoints and heroics.
If you really had a clue how your lethality Op works, you wouldn't be spewing this crap.

Even without trying a heal spec, you should damn well know that, at the very least, everything you said but the HoTs, is oversimplified and propagandized crap.

As a DoT spec, I'm surprised you don't have a clue about the cleanses available to healers as well as their blind spots.

As Lethality, I'm surprised you don't realize how pathetic "restealth", if not stealth itself, is for non-Concealment Ops. Bonus points for completely ignoring the fact that you aren't going to be very successful at in-combat stealth if someone puts DoTs on you - but hey, Evasion is "free", who cares about opportunity cost.

And, as a healer Operative, I'm now informing you, our lolHoTs are crappy too. As is all of our instants, with the sole exception of having SP as a "free" cast.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

wishihadaname's Avatar


wishihadaname
03.20.2012 , 11:34 PM | #350
Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
If you really had a clue how your lethality Op works, you wouldn't be spewing this crap.

Even without trying a heal spec, you should damn well know that, at the very least, everything you said but the HoTs, is oversimplified and propagandized crap.

As a DoT spec, I'm surprised you don't have a clue about the cleanses available to healers as well as their blind spots.

As Lethality, I'm surprised you don't realize how pathetic "restealth", if not stealth itself, is for non-Concealment Ops. Bonus points for completely ignoring the fact that you aren't going to be very successful at in-combat stealth if someone puts DoTs on you - but hey, Evasion is "free", who cares about opportunity cost.

And, as a healer Operative, I'm now informing you, our lolHoTs are crappy too. As is all of our instants, with the sole exception of having SP as a "free" cast.
wow, angry aren't we? The fact that i'm specced lethality doesn't mean that i've never played healer, and the fact that you can't get it to work does not mean that it doesn't. I'm in a good mood though, so I think rather than flame back i'll just disect your argument for the illogical mess that it is. Observe:

1) You say that me stating that our HoT's are good is propaganda, I ask what I would have to gain from spreading propoganda. It seems more reasonable to say that what I said is simply focusing on the positive and hence has no place on a whinefest forum like our classes sadly is.

2) I mentioned clenses, in fact I mentioned them as a strong point of the OP because ours happens to be very cheap and on a relatively short cooldown. As a DoT based spec I do know how frustrating it can be to have to restart my rotation because of a clense, although its not used very often.

3) If you are having trouble with blind spots, that means you managed to get yourself targeted and focused on. This implies one of two things. Either you were being very visible about healing or someone has it out for you. If you were being visible about healing, your doing it wrong, find some cover off to the side, stay mobile and stay with the team. If someone has it out for you specifically, use your "pathetic" restealth along with your "useless" evasion followed by your "never been used" sneak (you know, that button that makes you invisible). 10 seconds later, make sure your somewhere well away and out of sight and proceed to heal ourself from 5% to 100 in about 3-4 GCD's.

4) Evasion is the single best defense skill you have, and unless you intend to martyr yourself for the sake of a goal or to save a teammates life, there is no reason it should be concidered an opportunity cost. A couple of examples for those who don't understand the skills value. Its uses include but are not limited to, stopping a sniper/slinger from touching you at all, shutting down a lethality operative or madness sorc, shutting down a pyrotech/assault trooper, in combination with debilitate for getting to 8 meters away from a pissed of sent/marauder without having to deal with their slows, for a flawless restealth, for ignoring aoe weapon attacks (again, marauders, snipers and mercs), ect.

5) You state that our HoT's are crappy, what is your point of reference? If you concider the out of combat recuperation skill that every class has as a HoT then sure, were pathetic. Otherwise I challenge you to find another class that can drop 4k woth of HoT on multiple targets while on the move which remain active even if you are on the other side of the map and provide you with unlimited TA's.

6) You say our instants are crappy and mentioned free cast SP's. Simply the fact that you mentioned free cast SP's leads me to suspect that you had a marauder chopping away at your face as you were trying to out heal him with an 80% reduction. If your target is consistantly at 30% health so that free cast SP's become a key tactic and not an "Ohh crap" button you are doing it wrong. As for the other instants, nanotech is useful if a fight is primarily close range as it heals your entire team with 0 effort on your part, clense is cheap, fast to cooldown, and neuters pyrotechs, lethality ops, and madness sorcs as well as provides a bit of healing if specced, and as mentioned before, 2 kolto probes on a target = 2-3 TA's + 4-5K healing again with 0 effort and next to not energy cost.

7) If your having trouble sneaking about, and I mentioned this before, we have sneak for a reason. Generally, you shouldn't need stealth as anything but a positioning tool and getaway mechanism. To that end you can think of it as camo rather then stealth. Don't walk within 10M of enemies faces without using sneak, avoid running through the middle of a fight where you are certain to get hit with AOE's, and if you really are a medic, then don't forget to clense before you restealth! You don't even need evasion to get away clean.