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Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.
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IronJelly's Avatar


IronJelly
03.12.2012 , 11:47 AM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by Ojas View Post
Sure.

It's alright to nerf Operative damage to almost unusable levels because the 1/10 operatives who showed up in warzones stayed in stealth while they looked for players who were <lvl 50 who had the least amount of armor (oo what do you know, the most played class, sorcerer and sages).

The math behind that nerf was foolish. Operative had to work significantly harder to do damage and any equally geared players competed exceptionally well with a geared concealment operative.

They felt the need to nerf this class, significantly underplayed at that point so that now, a lightening sorcerer in full champ gear using nothing but shock, electrocute, force lightening and lightening strike can out damage the melee/behind target/stealth attack class. They do it from 30m, have a unbelievably overpowered static barrier, aoe knock back, pull speed boost, ranged stun, In addition to that, their ability to be top dps in the game with a few 30m abilities, they also have the best heals in the game.

They also have significantly easier class mechanics.
Let's look at one example. Pre pull preparation in a 4 man hard mode run.

Operative has to use on ability 8 times (stack it 2 times on each player) that costs him 15 energy each cast (120 in total). 8 casts with 1.5 second global cooldown means it takes 12 seconds for his pre pull preparation. If the operative regenerates 6 energy per second, he can only regenerate 72 energy (it's actually lower since casting kolto probe back to back for buffing will put the operative in a lower regeneration state. Regardless, if he regenerates 72 energy, he will have at most 52 energy (if max of 100 energy) or 57 energy (if max of 105 energy). 120 energy - 72 energy = 48 energy. 48 energy = 48% of the operatives base pool.

The sorcerer has to cast static barrier 4 times with a max of 4.5 sec for each cast (1.5 second (same as GCD) if talented) for a total time to shield all 4 players between 18 and 6 seconds. It costs them a max of 65 force for each cast for a total of 260 force . They can regenerate between 18*8 = 144 and 6*8 = 48 force. Leaving them with a net cost between 116 and 212 force.
116 is = 23% of their base pool. 212 = 42.4% of their base pool of 500. I dont know of any sorcerers who do not have 600 force.
In addition to that, static barrier is a special type of heal that doesnt generate threat and only conveys its heal if the player is damaged. Kolto probe generates threat and can be easily wasted if the players are in a burst damage situation that hits a split second after the kolto probe tick.
Why would kolto probe not provide better overall heal (or absorbtion) given these unbalanced facts that favor sorcerers? It does.

That is just one example for how sorcerers are vastly superior to operatives.

Why they feel the need to nerf two of the operatives main damage abilities by 20% and not balance sorcerers is beyond me.

You can take it as a conspiracy theory. I do not care. It is blatantly obvious bioware is leaving the game unbalanced in favor of sorcerers. We know they can make updates to "balance" the game. They nerfed the living hell out of my class.
Why wouldn't the sorcerer nerfs or significant buffs to other classes be #1 priority?

Because a lot of players in this game want an easy game. Most are sorcerer. Balance sorcerer to make it on par with other classes instead of the face roll class it is, maybe 5% of those players quit like the EXTREMELY large percentage of operatives have quit since the concealment operative nerf. Bioware cant have that, so they leave the class in god mode.

You need to decide if your arguements are about Operative Damage or healing. it's hard to take you seriously when you keep flipping between talking about one or the other. It's also obvious you have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Operative healing.

I almost never prepare for an encounter by stacking two KP on each party member. they last 18 seconds, i wouldn't be doing any healing if I had to go to each player in turn and cast it twice. KP is supposed to be your set-it-and-forget-it heal, as far as I can tell. I will toss two on a tank right before or during a tough encounter, but otherwise, it's my "oh, that guy took a hit, or an AOE or something, and just needs a quick patchup" heal. I toss it on someone other than the tank (like myself), and go back to KI/SP spam the tank.

and you know what? I seem to heal just fine that way.
I am a Farker. What that means to you is that I speak my mind. If the above post was offensive to you for any reason, be glad that I won't even know if you ignore me. Welcome to the internet.

tharnvedra's Avatar


tharnvedra
03.12.2012 , 12:16 PM | #222
Granted Georg tries to be funny but I really wonder why nobody at BW comes to the right conclusion. Perhaps the lack of communication leads to the described wrong speculations?

Talking about design and balance details too early is of course wrong because its very likely you have to change around things after some testing.

The conclusion to say nothing at all and let your player base in the dark for 2-3 months and at some point just release 1.2 and see what happens is even worse so.

A MMO in 2012 should go with active class dev leads to discuss problems on the forum, track bugs, make wishlists, filter good ideas and perhaps even implement some of them.

All I see here are very active moderators closing and moving threads. Even constructive ones. Sorry but I came from Rift and devs there are actually reading the forum and they are allowed to answer.

A "we dont have the resources right now but X is on our list or Y is working as intended or Z wont change anytime soon because we think its fine as it is" is alot better than silence.

"We know it best" is very dangerous too. Perhaps you think you know what players want but well sometimes a good design idea is just good in theory. There is a difference between the designers like it and the player base does.

I guess at some point somebody at BW thought Ilum is an amazing idea or orange items are so much better than a silly appereance tab ... well until another guy came up with set boni.

Obtena's Avatar


Obtena
03.12.2012 , 12:44 PM | #223
Just two points to reinforce:

1. No logical argument for change will be made comparing specifics on OP heals to Sorc heals. That's where the dev response makes sense. That's why the original poster is being clueless. If you want to play Sorc heal mechanics, make one, but don't force it on other classes. It's hard to make a case for OP heals needing to be fixed when OP healers can complete the same content other healers can. In otherwords, no one should be arguing that operative heals need to be fixed without looking at the bigger picture of what OP's offer in teams.

2. So what do heal-speced OP's offer in a team? When I am healing on my OP (which I have no problem doing), I have little resource or time to think about doing anything else. That's a frustrating experience to think you are just a heal monkey. If people want to compare playstyles between different classes, that's valid. I haven't played Merc/Sorc healers so I can't comment but if those classes are more than just heal monkeys when heal speced and operatives are not, then that is when have a problem with the class.

Changing energy regen rates or whatever doesn't fix a conceptual problem with any class. Therefore, this thread is nonsense.
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Obtena - Operative

Bohnur's Avatar


Bohnur
03.12.2012 , 03:50 PM | #224
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Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
03.12.2012 , 04:30 PM | #225
Quote: Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
1. No logical argument for change will be made comparing specifics on OP heals to Sorc heals. That's where the dev response makes sense. That's why the original poster is being clueless. If you want to play Sorc heal mechanics, make one, but don't force it on other classes. It's hard to make a case for OP heals needing to be fixed when OP healers can complete the same content other healers can. In otherwords, no one should be arguing that operative heals need to be fixed without looking at the bigger picture of what OP's offer in teams.
You'd have a more convincing argument here if the number of times I've run into an idiot Sorc complaining about how bad they have it compared to Mercs/Ops because it takes so long for their bar to refill at their flat ~1.3% per second compared to our ~2% per second (at the lowest energy tier) could actually be counted on the number of hands of people still playing Operatives.

PS: The idea that you want to discuss "what OP's offer in teams" makes it very hard to believe you play an Operative at all. We bring no utility outside of 10m and no group synergy at all.

Everything an Operative does, whether it's healing or damage, is all about ME - whether it's the utter lack of any utility buffs the other healers can apply with some of their staple heals or the fact that Concealment's armor "debuff" isn't a debuff but a personal buff that grants armor penetration as opposed to the other classes that get a debuff which benefits each group member's contribution to damage, and even with this lack of group synergy we do at best comparable numbers to other classes in the same role, with less utility, less survivability, and less mobility (lol @ "stealth is a gap-closer" crowd).

TL;DR: We get all of the negatives, none of the positives, and still only put up comparable numbers to other classes when we're at our best.

It's like we ended up getting served the cold lumpy instant mash potatoes with no gravy alongside our scrambled eggs and bacon, whereas everyone else got varying sizes of T-bone steak or filet mignon with fresh baked potatoes. Sure we've still got a balanced meal, but it doesn't mean we didn't get screwed.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

NessusFett's Avatar


NessusFett
03.12.2012 , 04:39 PM | #226
are people honestly still complaining that you are no longer allowed to hit 8ks on people?

lets be real.

That is OBVIOUSLY over powered when you can hit more than 50% of someones bar in an opener.



why are people still so upset about that. ridiculous.

What i find more funny is this thread was about the difference in regen between classes and how they favor sorcs.
when clearly the ops have a more efficient cast on that one ability.
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Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
03.12.2012 , 04:44 PM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by NessusFett View Post
are people honestly still complaining that you are no longer allowed to hit 8ks on people?

lets be real.

That is OBVIOUSLY over powered when you can hit more than 50% of someones bar in an opener.
Most people complaining about the operative nerfs are complaining about the operative nerfs, not the buff stacking and implementation of a 50s bracket that stopped everyone from getting ridiculously high damage numbers.

Quote: Originally Posted by NessusFett View Post
What i find more funny is this thread was about the difference in regen between classes and how they favor sorcs.
when clearly the ops have a more efficient cast on that one ability.
Yeah, that one ability is clearly overpowered.

Even mentioning its very name can cause a division by zero error and implode the multiverse.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

astrolite's Avatar


astrolite
03.12.2012 , 06:47 PM | #228
I think the bottom line here is to expect buffs and mechanic changes across the board for operatives. You simply can not release the ability to track healing and damage and not make a good attempt at balance, it would otherwise show a lack of competence on behalf of the developers.

I think the balance discussion post 1.2 will be in terms of utility, where Bioware uses an undisclosed "grading" system to determine how abilities are provided to classes/specs. I think a large grading weight was given to stealth, which was probably a mistake they are seeing in hindsight.

My predictions - big focus on synergy:

1. Base energy regen boosted to be on par with other classes ability pools

2. Lethality complete rework of upper tree. Costs lowered. Range increased including TA generation - upper talents to avoid conceal/lethality hybrid. Talent to give dispel immunity or X% chance on dispel of DoT for it to do immediate damage.

3. Medicine talent rework includes defensive abilities, new casted heal, TA used for bonuses and not heals (e.g. instant cast heal, increase armor by x% on target, grant 100% crit on next heal, etc)

4. Hidden Strike removed and damage rolled in to backstab, shiv, lacerate. 30% crit bonus applied to all. Acid Blade removed as a 31 pt talent and given as a base ability to benefit concealment and lethality together. New 31 pt concealment talent to gain situational advantage vs requirement for pvp type dps. Most likely will be a gap closer of some sort and if used from stealth increases damage for x% for y time.

I look forward to coming back to see how wrong I was

Frostbyt's Avatar


Frostbyt
03.13.2012 , 12:44 AM | #229
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey,

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

Georg


edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!
the mod trolling the OP?

Kiyoma's Avatar


Kiyoma
03.13.2012 , 11:16 AM | #230
Georg isn't a mod. He's a lead developer. Big difference.

Secondly, stop trying to compare Agent healers to Sorc healers - they are not the same. They do not play the same. They are actually suited for different things, or intended anyway. Bioware has officially acknowledged at this point that Agent/Smuggler healers need a little love.
Kiyoma - 75 Madness Sorcerer - Wound in the Force