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Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.
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Ezren's Avatar


Ezren
03.08.2012 , 10:03 PM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunazen View Post
Yes! Best yellow post I've ever seen on here. No kissing butt. No apologizing. Just tellin' it like it is. Awesome

Operative here. I, for one, appreciate the differences in classes. Rather that than a game with only one class in different skins.
No one, at least I dont think, wants smugglers/operatives to be more like sages. You can have different ways of accomplishing the same thing, and as long as both ways lead to "equal results" it all works out. I want sages and smugglers to have different ways to do it, but both put forth equal effort and achieve equal results.

The problem most people, myself included, has right now is that sages need far less "effort" to accomplish the same goals than smugglers. All things being equal (gear/player skill/party makeup etc) the sage is going to be the superior choice by sheer simplicity of playstyle and abilities they posses.

Smuggler healers have more things to keep track of, more work involved and get less results from the same effort as a sage. Its not balanced to be that way, and its not fair for people who enjoy playing a smuggler/operative over a sage type healer.

Ojas's Avatar


Ojas
03.08.2012 , 10:22 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey,

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

Georg


edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!
I think you missed the point of my original post.

Something highlighted in several other threads I have made.

It is a simple fact. Universally accepted. Sorcerers have stronger heals.
They have better utility.

The two main heals for each class.
Operative = Kolto Injection - Costs 25 Energy.
Sorcerer = Dark Infusion - Costs 55 Force (Talent that every Sorcerer healer has reduces that cost to 50 Force.


Operative regeneration rate is variable. Sorcerers regeneration rate is fixed.
It is not fair to compare energy/force regeneration to max resource pool. Instead, compare it to the main heals for each class (Kolto Injection and Dark Infusion).

If our Energy drops below 60 our regeneration rate is 3 energy per second. If our Energy drops below 40 our regeneration rate is 2.5 energy per second. If our Energy drops below 20, our regeneration rate is 2 energy per second.

Comparison between these primary heals for each class as a function of Energy/Force regen.
Operative;
Drop below 60 Energy = 3 Energy/s; Takes us 8.333 seconds to regenerate 25 energy to cast our primary heal.
Drop below 40 Energy = 2.5 Energy/s; Takes us 10 seconds to regenerate enough energy to cast our primary heal.
Drop below 20 Energy = 2 Energy/s; Takes us 12.5 seconds to regenerate enough energy to cast our primary heal.


Sorcerer;
Regardless of their Force level = 8 Force/s; Takes a Sorcerer 6.875 seconds to regenerate the Force required to cast their heal.


So. Tell me how this is fair.

If an Operative does not stop casting to ensure he keeps 60% of his Energy bar filled a Sorcerer regenerates the Force required to cast their heal at a faster rate.

Essentially. Sorcerer has better regen if an Opreative drops below 60 Energy.
8.333s - 6.875s = 1.458s.
So if an Operative drops below 60% energy, Sorcerers regenerate enough force to cast their primary heal 1.458 seconds faster.
10s - 6.875 = 3.125s.
So if an Operative drops below 40% energy, Sorcerers regenerate enough force to cast their primary heal 3.125 seconds faster.
12.5s - 6.875 = 5.625s
So if an Operative drops below 20% energy, Sorcerers regenerate enough force to cast their primary heal 5.625 seconds faster.

This means, that a Sorcerer who has a base pool of 500 (enough to cast Dark Infusion 9 times), has a better regen rates if an Operative uses more than 40 points of Energy.

They get stronger heals.
Much larger resource pool.
And better regeneration rates (relative to the actual cost of their abilities) than an Operative, if that Operative does not make sure he only uses a max of 40 Energy.

Kolto Injection costs 25 Energy; We are given a window of 40 Energy.

That makes no sense.

Sorcerer with 500 base pool gets better regeneration rates than an Operative, if the Operative uses more than 40 Energy.

Jaymanus's Avatar


Jaymanus
03.08.2012 , 10:24 PM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by Serahn View Post
Pre-pull, you want to get two stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Cast Kolto Injection twice to get two stacks of Tactical Advantage. Burn one stack to get Stim Boost.

Your main priority is to keep to 2 stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Not only does this provide constant healing, it also gives a chance to grant Tactical Advantage. After that the Operative has a lot of options.

Any time you have 2 stacks of Tactical Advantage, you want to burn it, so not to waste any Medical Engineering procs. First, refresh Stim Boost if possible. Next use Surgical Probe to heal lowest health person or tank depending on the fight.

If someone still needs healing, now is the time to use Kolto Injection.

If you have less than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use Diagnostic Scan to heal and recover energy.

If you have more than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use corrosive dart or shiv.

If the whole group takes damage, use Recuperative Nanotech. All dps have an ability to keep themselves alive long for you to heal the tank up and then worry about them. Whether they use it or not is player dependent.

If the tank takes spike damage, you can spam Surgical Probe till above 30% health. Then rotate Kolto Injection and Surgical Probe. After the tank is back at a safe health and still has 2 stacks of Kolto Probe, you will probably need to use Adrenaline Probe to recover energy above 60.

I know the above looks a lot like a priority system, but it should not follow it strictly. An Operative needs to use her Crowd Control abilities also. Preventing damage is just as important as healing it. The Operative has Debilitate (4 sec stun), Orbital Strike, Flashbang (blinds up to 5 enemies), and Slice Droid that can be used in combat. While these canít be used on bosses, bosses often have adds that they will work on. Pre-combat, the Operative has Sleep Dart. Also the Operative has Distraction, an ability interrupt. DPS and tank should cover that but you canít always rely on them.
You sir understand, the Op however does not. I can't understand how these people don't realise its not about one ability vs another ability its about the mechanics of the class as a whole and utalising them correctly. Of course you cant say oh this ability vs this ability one is better because its about MUCH more than that.

These people who cry for nerfs and talk about 'balance' but don't understand how to play their class are so frustrating.

Ojas's Avatar


Ojas
03.08.2012 , 10:27 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaymanus View Post
You sir understand, the Op however does not. I can't understand how these people don't realise its not about one ability vs another ability its about the mechanics of the class as a whole and utalising them correctly. Of course you cant say oh this ability vs this ability one is better because its about MUCH more than that.

These people who cry for nerfs and talk about 'balance' but don't understand how to play their class are so frustrating.
I don't understand what?

Do the analysis.

Ezren's Avatar


Ezren
03.08.2012 , 10:30 PM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaymanus View Post
You sir understand, the Op however does not. I can't understand how these people don't realise its not about one ability vs another ability its about the mechanics of the class as a whole and utalising them correctly. Of course you cant say oh this ability vs this ability one is better because its about MUCH more than that.

These people who cry for nerfs and talk about 'balance' but don't understand how to play their class are so frustrating.
I think its totally about the mechanics as a whole. That is where I see a startling imbalance.

Its not just one ability vs another ability. Its the entire package.

Operatives/smugglers CAN do all content. I dont dispute that. They require VASTLY more effort than a sage does, which is what I have a problem with.

Nerfs or buffs need to be used, so both classes can accomplish the same goal with similar effort, thats all I want.

Sookster's Avatar


Sookster
03.08.2012 , 10:36 PM | #146
Considering this post:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=332481

For example, see the part where kolto cloud (recuperative nanotech) heals the least and costs the most.

In the devs' eyes, operative & scounderal is working as intended.
Now that GoergZoeller is gone, buff operative.
SWTOR going F2P, now playing SWGemu.

Ojas's Avatar


Ojas
03.08.2012 , 10:43 PM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by Sookster View Post
Considering this post:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=332481

For example, see the part where kolto cloud (recuperative nanotech) heals the least and costs the most.

In the devs' eyes, operative & scounderal is working as intended.
Why does sorcerer get better regeneration rates than an Operative, if the Operative drops below 60 Energy, given Sorcerers also get 500 Force.

That is working as Intended?

They get better heals, better overall regeneration and a larger resource pool.

Xenthum's Avatar


Xenthum
03.08.2012 , 10:51 PM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Ojas View Post
Why does sorcerer get better regeneration rates than an Operative, if the Operative drops below 60 Energy, given Sorcerers also get 500 Force.

That is working as Intended?

They get better heals, better overall regeneration and a larger resource pool.
I agree with everything that you're saying besides the insinuation that good Operatives ever go below 50 energy without their Adren Probe off cooldown.

The real issue is that Operatives only have ~50 Energy, with a 2 minute cooldown to give them an extra 50. Sorcs have 600 Energy, and will always be able to easily replenish it with procs (6.2% chance not to proc with below average gear).

broadspartan's Avatar


broadspartan
03.08.2012 , 11:13 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey,

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

Georg


edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!
Such a Professinal response from a Dev who can't be bothered to respond to a meaningful IA discussion but has no problem trolling the OP here. He was pointing out a desparity between the mechanics of classes not trying to say one was a mirror, it wasn't very hard to see that if you read it, even if I don't totally agree with it, but I guess you were worried that someone was picking on your pet class. I mean you all have done such an outstanding job thus far with running your game and fixing all the bugs I guess it gives you the right to troll the people playing your game, who by the way are providing you with a job, instead of providing a more dignified response to the complaint. You are a Dev and your statements carry more weight than anyone else in these forums and this is how you choose to use it? To make it worse someone higher in Bioware will see this and just erase the thread so it looks like it didn't even happen. If you can't reply in a manner befitting your station you should at least apologize to the OP and maybe after that try responding to some of the meaningful complaints in the IA section. I applaud your professionalism Mr Zoller and I see part of why things don't get done around here, I'll just go ahead and wait for my warning for daring to tell a Dev they were wrong but you're still an ***.

Bravemonster's Avatar


Bravemonster
03.08.2012 , 11:14 PM | #150
I'm not claiming to know exactly how OPs healing is. I play a powertech dps. I DO have a sorc healer, and a OPs healer alt. I agree at least at low level the sorc is seriously more powerful a healer (than again both my alts are VERY low level).

That aside, I'm presently in a guild that cleared 8 man Nightmare modes and recently move on to 16 mans, clearing both with Unyielding and Infernal titles. We have 3 healers. 1 merc healer and 2 OPs. I hear the merc going over heat about once per fight, and one of the OPs is a dedicated raid healer. I don't know healing assignments, because it isn't my job, but Healing is NEVER an issue.

TL: DR Sorc/sages arent needed. Enjoy the things that are different about each class. And I spoke with my OPs healers and they said they NEVER have energy issues. So whatever you are doing, you are doing it wrong.
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