Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Update 1.2 Class Balances and the Nitty Gritty Details

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Update 1.2 Class Balances and the Nitty Gritty Details
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Alxandria's Avatar


Alxandria
03.09.2012 , 11:31 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Delphis View Post
It's a shame that some people settle for mediocrity and flawed mechanics.

Please don't quote Rift anymore in any discussion on class balance and talent spec design.

Judging by Bioware's previous titles, I fully expected them to deliver a more solid product in SWTOR. That is a fair conclusion based on historical performance.
Well Rift is an example of how a LOT of options makes balance EXTREMELY difficult, that was why they went through a LOT of rebalance, tweaking etc. The other end of the spectrum would be a game like FFXI, where there was no speccing beyond class combos Job, Sub Job. They still had to rebalance, why, because people were VERY good at creating combinations that were more effective than others. Some classes couldn't compete on equal footing. It was less severe because the combinations were less, but they were there.

DAoC, DDO, Vanguard, WoW, Aion, EQ, all of these had to do some sort of class re-balance, whether it was minor or expansive, depending on how much the Devs failed to predict the outcomes of what can rapidly add up to countless combinations. It's just the nature of an MMO. Add gear, use items, stats and you keep increasing the difficulty of being prepared for every contingency.

On the personal attack, I'm not settling for anything, I do however understand that you aren't going to ship a perfect product, there is no such thing. All I can ask is that Devs continue to work and improve their product at a speed that is not slower than my patience. As long as *I* am still having fun, I will keep playing.

Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
03.09.2012 , 11:43 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by Brightglade View Post
I love so many of your comments Shroudveil. *Tight hug !*



I sure don't remember getting a free respec but Im a Medic. Also, I have read many of your posts and you are one of the few players that actually -get it- about Op Medics. *Tight hug !*

[Off topic]
Your post the other day that Medics and Sawbones only having 50-100 energy was spot on. I would go further and say, that Op Medics and Sawbones only have 51-100 energy.

I have already listed, twice, what I would change to help Medics/Sawbones. I'm just waiting for the patch notes to see if I cancel my account or continue to play. The healing balancing needs to be substantial.
I got a hug! Woot!

Delphis's Avatar


Delphis
03.09.2012 , 11:45 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by hadoken View Post
No it isn't because this is BioWare's first MMO. Your posts suggest you're new to the genre (hint: no such thing as perfect balance, ever).
Wrong on both accounts.

1. I've been playing computer games since before Microsoft existed.

2. Bioware's SWTOR staff consists of many MMO vets.

I expected BW to control those MMO vets and not make the same mistakes they made in past games, and to go further and produce a higher quality game than what previously existed.

SWTOR does not do one thing that some other game doesn't do better other than voice acting and an overarcing single player plot.

It is quite clear to me that my level of expectation for a quality software product is not met with SWTOR. This game might be just fine in about a year or so, but it won't really matter by then. I -hope- they get it right in 1.2 but judging by past performance since December, 2011, I highly doubt it.

Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
03.09.2012 , 11:50 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by hadoken View Post
No it isn't because this is BioWare's first MMO. Your posts suggest you're new to the genre (hint: no such thing as perfect balance, ever).
It may be Bioware's first MMO, but it's not their first game, nor first RPG. It's also not some of the developers first MMO, as Bioware has taken devs that worked on other MMOs (Warhammer).


In my case, I'm mostly concerned because Bioware had several months of beta-testing before launch. I would expect that many balance issues would have been ironed out during those months. I said before I'll give Bioware a chance at another balance pass. I think it's clear that they weren't quite ready to launch in December, but had to anyway.

Delphis's Avatar


Delphis
03.09.2012 , 11:52 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Alxandria View Post
Well Rift is an example of how a LOT of options makes balance EXTREMELY difficult, that was why they went through a LOT of rebalance, tweaking etc. The other end of the spectrum would be a game like FFXI, where there was no speccing beyond class combos Job, Sub Job. They still had to rebalance, why, because people were VERY good at creating combinations that were more effective than others. Some classes couldn't compete on equal footing. It was less severe because the combinations were less, but they were there.

DAoC, DDO, Vanguard, WoW, Aion, EQ, all of these had to do some sort of class re-balance, whether it was minor or expansive, depending on how much the Devs failed to predict the outcomes of what can rapidly add up to countless combinations. It's just the nature of an MMO. Add gear, use items, stats and you keep increasing the difficulty of being prepared for every contingency.

On the personal attack, I'm not settling for anything, I do however understand that you aren't going to ship a perfect product, there is no such thing. All I can ask is that Devs continue to work and improve their product at a speed that is not slower than my patience. As long as *I* am still having fun, I will keep playing.
Yes, I get your point about Rift. My counterpoint is that SWTOR -should- have evolved the concept rather than rehashed it.

No, it wasn't a personal attack. Rather a statement that some people settle for less than other people.

Believe me when I say that I have wanted SWTOR to succeed since the very beginning. However, I cannot simply ignore so many glaring oversights, bad designs, and poorly implemented systems. And back on topic, I have a big question whether BW has the ability to deliver a truly balanced gameplay experience.

For example, I am in a huge guild (500+) where most characters are 50. None of the Sentinels will play Huttball. Balanced? I think not.

hadoken's Avatar


hadoken
03.09.2012 , 11:53 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
It may be Bioware's first MMO, but it's not their first game, nor first RPG. It's also not some of the developers first MMO, as Bioware has taken devs that worked on other MMOs (Warhammer).

In my case, I'm mostly concerned because Bioware had several months of beta-testing before launch. I would expect that many balance issues would have been ironed out during those months. I said before I'll give Bioware a chance at another balance pass. I think it's clear that they weren't quite ready to launch in December, but had to anyway.
The problems they have in this game are unique to MMOs, that is my point. They're also not problems that even experienced MMO makers fix (game balance - what MMO is perfectly balanced? none).

They actually have a pretty good balance in this game, honestly. I don't expect 1.2 to bring major nerfs or buffs, because neither is needed.

va_wanderer's Avatar


va_wanderer
03.09.2012 , 11:57 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by Tanviper View Post
WOW had a few skill reset as well. This isn't something to worry about. It's a new game, and it will have growing pains.
Heck, I had my mage's skill tree radically changed each expansion from TBC -> Wrath -> Cataclysm. I expect skill resets, especially considering what was IMO the premature birth of SWTOR. In fact, I find them to be good CS.
Help unify PvP and PvE content- PvP+E! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=298731

Delphis's Avatar


Delphis
03.09.2012 , 12:02 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by hadoken View Post
The problems they have in this game are unique to MMOs, that is my point. They're also not problems that even experienced MMO makers fix (game balance - what MMO is perfectly balanced? none).

They actually have a pretty good balance in this game, honestly. I don't expect 1.2 to bring major nerfs or buffs, because neither is needed.
I actually agree that class vs. class balance is not terrible in SWTOR. I am surprised that they are doing a full reset of talents.

The biggest game imbalancing problem that I see is gear. And now I'm talking purely pvp. They've made improvements to make Champion gear a lot easier to obtain so that players are more closely and quickly matched.

BW does need to figure out how they want resolve to work, and if it is working as they expect then they need to document it. Additionally, the state of CC in this game is way out of control.

hadoken's Avatar


hadoken
03.09.2012 , 12:06 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Delphis View Post
BW does need to figure out how they want resolve to work, and if it is working as they expect then they need to document it. Additionally, the state of CC in this game is way out of control.
I tend to agree with this. Resolve "works" but people don't really understand it and it doesn't work well. And the snare/root issue is an issue IMO.

Alxandria's Avatar


Alxandria
03.09.2012 , 12:09 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by Delphis View Post
I actually agree that class vs. class balance is not terrible in SWTOR. I am surprised that they are doing a full reset of talents.
I think the refund of all talent points is an overly cautious move (all conjecture since we have no idea what the changes in 1.2 are yet nor how extensive they are.) My guess is they want no one to remotely say "Hey you change this, why didn't I get a reset?", even if the change was just a minor value bump.