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Update 1.2 Class Balances and the Nitty Gritty Details

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Update 1.2 Class Balances and the Nitty Gritty Details
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Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
03.09.2012 , 12:09 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Bbizzle View Post
han solo can be as iconic as you want him to be, people want to use a lightsaber, and its really that simple for some people.

Plus, I understand some people are having issues with the scoundrel and op DPS specs, But I group with some legit ones daily and they absolutely wreck people. Every class has shortcomings. Hell My assualt specced troopers ammo management is horrid compared to other classes AP management. But you have to look at your classes good points and weigh with the bad. Scoundrel and ops are still extremely strong classes. At least in pvp they are. They were absolutely rediculous before. Everyone knows it. Some people were just having success on them, those people were bad. The good ones were popping out of stealth and killing 2 people in 15 seconds. One of them could have been a tank, didnt matter. I saw people opening for 9k.

If people are having to spec to counter your class, your class is a problem. On my sage I put 2 points into the bubble bursting mezzes for 3 seconds for one reason, Stealth pops. Because I know if I dont have that. Your class is specifically designed to kill me. Rock to Scissors.

I know people go into a rogue thinking, I can just run around by myself and kill people with my burst. My class is designed to do that. Wrong. This games PVP is very team oriented. Before none of you had to focus fire to have success in pvp. Now youre like every other class who has to jump on same targets and be opportunist in order to kill organized people in pvp.

What you're not seeing though...is that by putting those points into your Bubble, you're completely counteracting the Scoundrel/Operatives, you're completely nullifying the rock to your scissors. Rock becomes pebbles, and more stings.

No Scoundrel was killing any "well-geared" player in 15 seconds, much less 2 in 15 seconds. The only times this was really happening was when they were already very low in health, or they were completely ungeared...or it was a level 50 going after lower levels.

It may have been a bit overpowered in terms of the opening burst. It was a near guaranteed hit from stealth, that could hit from 3-6k depending on buffs and if it crits. No one was ever hitting for 9k in a single hit. Before they looked at all the buff stacking and surge however, they performed a three way nerf, instead of just toning down the burst damage from stealth.

Thing is...right now we have Guardian/Juggernauts that are doing the exact same thing with their crits. And those can hit several people at once.

Right now, Scoundrel is more like a rogue fighting with a butter knife. I don't think many of us want to really see a return to those 6k numbers, but we do want to see some boosts back to our sustained DPS out of stealth. That's the most important part of DPS for PVE anyway, and important for any fight in PVP that lasts longer than a few seconds.

Anyway, there are better places to discuss this, and this thread isn't to discuss any particular class, but what changes will be coming to all classes in 1.2.

Sirsri's Avatar


Sirsri
03.09.2012 , 01:04 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Well no.

Any kind of structural change we do (e.g. a skill that had 3 points now has 2 points) or if a skill changes what it does or moves to a different tier will require us to give all players in that tree a free respec. Anything else would be unfair to the player. I'm not going to start changing your character without giving you that option.

Game Update 1.2. contains the result of several months of feedback and data gathered from real player interactions with our servers. We're quite deliberate in our pace of making adjustments to classes, taking our time to see where classes are developing as players get into the game, watching new specs coming and going as the community develops counter measures against them. Game Update 1.2 is an opportunity for us to roll out greater changes and big picture improvements or rebalances.

The changes made to most classes are more evolutionary adjustments or quality of life upgrades along with balance improvements (up and down). Still, we won't be the arbiter of whether a change makes a skill worthwhile or no longer worthwhile for your build, you can make that decision for yourself, hence the free respec.

Uh... don't you give us free respecs every tuesday anyway? Even if the tooltip doesn't reset, the cost to respec does....

The whole concept of the talent trees (and the lack of multi spec) is basically a failure anyway, so whatever incremental changes you make are sort of secondary to the broader problem that specs with 41 talent points don't really work conceptually. They're manageable for the moment since we all have our old simulation tools from WOTLK wow, but really, they don't make for good, compelling or interesting gameplay, they were dumb when wow launched, and this far on it's clear where they're deficient as a gameplay element. They just serve to confuse people who don't understand the underlying mathematics, and waste time for the people who do trying to figure out the right way to play. Once that sinks in, and you toss the whole concept then you'll be making real progress. Until then you're putting lipstick on a pig.

Now the trees are separate from the result of the trees. The result of the trees, which is how you actually play the game, well on that one you guys don't seem to have shown even a tiny shimmer of hope that you get it. It's *your* job to teach people how to play the game. Not mine. If I have to tell my guild members who don't even play my class how to to prioritize their abilities you are doing it wrong. And well, you're doing it wrong. But at least they are mostly mechanically different, your UI just does a horrid job of visualizing the data you need to play many of the specs. And nothing in 1.2 appears to even try and fix that.

If you want the short summary: Convert specs to 'themes' players unlock a new theme at 10, 25 and 40. They can switch between themes. Each theme mechanically follows most of the underlying principles of the specs, but without the baffling choices like whether or not I should be putting my 41st talent point in electric execution or exploitative strikes, and that sort of thing. The UI should reserve space to be signaled from the combat system about events the player should be responding to (i.e. this ability proced, use it now if you can). That space should always represent the same information in the same place, in the same way. Now make it customizable with either heroscript or LUA since there are more ways to visualize the same data properly than you have developers.

Mephane's Avatar


Mephane
03.09.2012 , 01:55 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Some example of what these change might entail would go a long way to knowing exactly how "evolutionary" these changes are. Especially after the 1.1 nerf to Scoundrel/Operative DPS, some of us are concerned our feedback isn't/wasn't being heard. Those changes felt very much reactionary, rather than carefully planned.

Edit: What's with Dev Posts showing up much later than when they actually get posted?
The way I understand their post is that unlike in That Other Game, you don't just get a free respec if your class gets severe changes or major overhauls, but even upon moderate changes.
Ceterum censeo chat bubbles addenda et party bomb reddendum esse.
---
The Alot is Better Than You at Everything

Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
03.09.2012 , 02:10 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Mephane View Post
The way I understand their post is that unlike in That Other Game, you don't just get a free respec if your class gets severe changes or major overhauls, but even upon moderate changes.
Which is fair. Though I'm not sure if they gave us a free respec when they changed Flechette Round and K.O. Or when they changed Shadow/Assassin stances to cost 100 Force.

FrostyDroid's Avatar


FrostyDroid
03.09.2012 , 02:11 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post

It may have been a bit overpowered in terms of the opening burst. It was a near guaranteed hit from stealth, that could hit from 3-6k depending on buffs and if it crits. No one was ever hitting for 9k in a single hit. Before they looked at all the buff stacking and surge however, they performed a three way nerf, instead of just toning down the burst damage from stealth.
This. What Bioware had on their hands was an emergency situation. They new exactly how much burst damage they wanted to be possible in PvP, and it was being well exceeded. So they had to make a major ajustment without a full set of metrics. Now they have more data, Smugglers and Agents will receive a more considered adjustment, one that will also be of benefit in PvE.

That's the way MMOs work, and why you don't need to know details of what is coming up. If something is overperforming (easy way to tel is look for fotm) it will get nerfed; if it feels weak, it will get buffed. This is why you should NEVER EVER SWITCH based on how powerful your character is. Whatever you have, stick with it, and it will get it's turn in the sun. Switching to an fotm mealy accelerates it's inevitable nerf.

Quote:
Thing is...right now we have Guardian/Juggernauts that are doing the exact same thing with their crits. And those can hit several people at once.
So we know that will be nerfed. It's not rocket science to see what is going to get changed.
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
It's incredible because it is not true.
As for expectations, we've always said that are not making another Star Wars sandbox, we are creating a different game.
I quote Zoeller now. Zoeller quotes are cool.

Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
03.09.2012 , 02:26 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by FrostyDroid View Post
This. What Bioware had on their hands was an emergency situation. They new exactly how much burst damage they wanted to be possible in PvP, and it was being well exceeded. So they had to make a major ajustment without a full set of metrics. Now they have more data, Smugglers and Agents will receive a more considered adjustment, one that will also be of benefit in PvE.

That's the way MMOs work, and why you don't need to know details of what is coming up. If something is overperforming (easy way to tel is look for fotm) it will get nerfed; if it feels weak, it will get buffed. This is why you should NEVER EVER SWITCH based on how powerful your character is. Whatever you have, stick with it, and it will get it's turn in the sun. Switching to an fotm mealy accelerates it's inevitable nerf.


Emergency situation should be reverted once other factors are also balanced. When Buff Stacking...and then Surge...were both nerfed, they could have easily gone back and adjusted the numbers up a little. However, they did not.

It is the nature of things in MMOs that there will be balance passes. However, it shouldn't be the case where major changes are made to one particular class, no communication is done with the community, and then it takes months to see any further changes.

(By the way, I started out playing a Scoundrel. I knew from the get go that I wanted to be the stealthy smuggler type. Personally, I don't see how Operative/Scoundrel could have ever been the FOTM type when even then we were the least played class.)


Quote:
So we know that will be nerfed. It's not rocket science to see what is going to get changed.
Enlighten me then, because at the moment, I have no idea what Bioware might be planning in terms of class balance. It's possible they might think Force Sweep critting for 5k+ is just fine.

Delease's Avatar


Delease
03.09.2012 , 02:59 AM | #67
Man i have to wonder if some of the people in this thread ever played a video game before. Some just remind me of that spoiled little kid who got a green mustang for his 16th birthday & complain because it wasn't black.

The amount of attention they ( BW ) is giving this game with patching and such is very high. More so then alot of other games. They are public about it, they are constant with it.

The one key factor, they have a deadline. So when the game was released, there was stuff that had to be done in order to make that date. These things happen, does it suck? Yes, but be grateful BW is constantly trying to make QoL in this game better & better.


Edit:
Replacing one skill with a new one is alot of work. One thing out of balance could throw ALOT of things out of balance.

I am also laughing because i remember on some patch days in WoW, people would complain there WAS NOT a skill reset. Now with BW, there will be a skill reset & people are complaining.

smh

Cryonic_Preacher's Avatar


Cryonic_Preacher
03.09.2012 , 04:09 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Well no.

Any kind of structural change we do (e.g. a skill that had 3 points now has 2 points) or if a skill changes what it does or moves to a different tier will require us to give all players in that tree a free respec. Anything else would be unfair to the player. I'm not going to start changing your character without giving you that option.

Game Update 1.2. contains the result of several months of feedback and data gathered from real player interactions with our servers. We're quite deliberate in our pace of making adjustments to classes, taking our time to see where classes are developing as players get into the game, watching new specs coming and going as the community develops counter measures against them. Game Update 1.2 is an opportunity for us to roll out greater changes and big picture improvements or rebalances.

The changes made to most classes are more evolutionary adjustments or quality of life upgrades along with balance improvements (up and down). Still, we won't be the arbiter of whether a change makes a skill worthwhile or no longer worthwhile for your build, you can make that decision for yourself, hence the free respec.
Dear Mr. Zoeller,

I read the BH nerf at IGN, this ist not a whine post, it is the fear that PvP imbalance issues will destroy PvE Balance, there is a huge base of PvE only Players, and there is a fear of some People looking forward to Patch 1.2.

Just take a look:

a BH nerf might be include the shared tree "Pyro", if there will be a nerf (at the look of a PvE player) Mercenary have there Top Damage Tree => Arsenal.
But players like me, enjoing the powertech DD, has only one DD possibillity the Pyro tree, this is our first DD tree, just like the Mercenary's Arsenal tree.

As Powertech we have no fall back, because the prototype tree doesn't compare at the moment.

The Problem will be if a Powertech DD (pyro) look at a place for operations, people will tell him "go away since nerf you have no really damage spec, we just took another real DD with us"

So the fear is, that Bioware doesn't look at the PvE balance and people who enjoy there class and spec.

Please Mr. Zoeller, have a look and take us the fear to get a class and spec that is to be damned to play alone.

thx very much and sorry i am not a native english speaker

FrostyDroid's Avatar


FrostyDroid
03.09.2012 , 05:33 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Emergency situation should be reverted once other factors are also balanced. When Buff Stacking...and then Surge...were both nerfed, they could have easily gone back and adjusted the numbers up a little. However, they did not.
The emergency had passed. They aren't going to tinker until they have enough info. Now they have info, but I very much doubt they will reverse the changes. Instead they will buff smugglers and agents in such a way that makes them more effective in PvE, not just PvP. Probably by increasing damage vs armoured targets. They have to look at the bigger picture, not just one small corner.

Quote:
(By the way, I started out playing a Scoundrel. I knew from the get go that I wanted to be the stealthy smuggler type. Personally, I don't see how Operative/Scoundrel could have ever been the FOTM type when even then we were the least played class.)
There was a spell when practically every low level character you saw was an Operative. It didn't last long, because as soon as BioWare saw there was a problem, they acted. They didn't waste time giving 2 months notice.

Quote:
Enlighten me then, because at the moment, I have no idea what Bioware might be planning in terms of class balance. It's possible they might think Force Sweep critting for 5k+ is just fine.
Maybe they do. Why do you need to know? You will get plenty of chance to test out the changes as a whole package when it hits the test server.

Or you could, you know, just play the game, and leave worrying about class balance to the people who get paid to do it.
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
It's incredible because it is not true.
As for expectations, we've always said that are not making another Star Wars sandbox, we are creating a different game.
I quote Zoeller now. Zoeller quotes are cool.

Shroudveil's Avatar


Shroudveil
03.09.2012 , 06:29 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by FrostyDroid View Post
The emergency had passed. They aren't going to tinker until they have enough info. Now they have info, but I very much doubt they will reverse the changes. Instead they will buff smugglers and agents in such a way that makes them more effective in PvE, not just PvP. Probably by increasing damage vs armoured targets. They have to look at the bigger picture, not just one small corner.



There was a spell when practically every low level character you saw was an Operative. It didn't last long, because as soon as BioWare saw there was a problem, they acted. They didn't waste time giving 2 months notice.



Maybe they do. Why do you need to know? You will get plenty of chance to test out the changes as a whole package when it hits the test server.

Or you could, you know, just play the game, and leave worrying about class balance to the people who get paid to do it.
forginve me but YOUR emergency and MY emergency differ completly.

p.e. NO, the emergency hasn't passed at all. Healing for 1/6 of hwat a sorc heals in aoe IS emergency.

being unable to move in pvp cause all roots bypass resolve and being unable to play hutball cause all classes except mine has knockdown IS emergency.

you want to be fair, then deal with all emergencies, not just those that affect sorcs. p.e. make roots NOT work at players till you fix resolve affecting them. make skills that bypass resolve (lie the sorc mez when shield break) only work on mobs until resolve is fixed and etc etc etc.

atm every player you see is either bh or sorc. THis isn't a problem? but when they were operatives it was?. After the buff stacking removal (which was nessessary i agree) BW didn't even waited 1 week to test out how damage of operatives was affected, they just continued their nerfs within 3days.

Nice of you Mr. BH/Sorc to tell me to play and enjoy the game. it is not enjoyable for me atm to be the worst healer and the worst dps out of 8 ACs. So yes, i will whine till they fix things, it is my right to do so just as YOU whined about getting 2 shotted in pvp by operatives prior to 1.1.1
Quote:
Georg Zoeller: A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed.