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So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

EasymodeX's Avatar


EasymodeX
03.06.2012 , 10:49 AM | #21
Quote:
YOUR oppinion is that it's "what's wrong" with mmorpgs. Others beleive it's a fun addition, one that you causuals have been trying to deny us all this time.
The large and important player constituency that I represent disagrees with the small and more or less irrelevant constituency that you claim to represent.
I can see things no one else can see. Do things no one else can do. Real things!

Richoshist's Avatar


Richoshist
03.06.2012 , 10:51 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by EternalFinality View Post
You're hardcore. You already are more skilled than the casuals. You'll beat them with equal gear. Unless you're afraid that perhaps you won't?

Hardcore doesn't mean you're good. Hardcore means you don't have anything else going on in your life and can spend 15 hours a day at your keyboard.

Hardcore means you have little of value in your life aside from the character you created. The game is the one place where you can have something that no one else does. It is the one place where others look up to you, and envy you for what you have.

And when the devs open it up and allow everyone to have what the hardcores have, they don't feel like unique snowflakes anymore. They are right back to being average, just like they are in the real world.

They never seem to learn that in these games, it's not about what you have, it's about making the most of what you got.
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Semitote's Avatar


Semitote
03.06.2012 , 10:51 AM | #23
What's the point of gearing at all if it doesn't give you an edge? We may as well just all fight naked.

That is the problem with making gear equivalent regardless of how long you spend playing the game.

I have no problem with solo queue people getting gear so long as it takes them time to get it. It also helps the team game because it will be easier to find geared teammates to recruit.

I haven't seen patch 1.2, so I'm not going to jump to conclusions here, but if a casual gamer can play 5 hours a week and get a full War Hero set in a month, then yes - something is wrong. If it still takes time for solo people to grind out the War Hero set, I don't see what the problem is.
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Darth_Sookie's Avatar


Darth_Sookie
03.06.2012 , 10:51 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
1. New gear is fine. It doesn't have to be more powerful.

2. Tweaking = reconfiguring gear, customizing gear. Switching gear between equally powerful alternatives. That's fine. It doesn't have to have more total stats though.

You sound terrible. Then again you're probably trolling and pretending to be completely terrible. Hard to tell since you're so convincing.
Fine lets halt ALL gear progression from now on. Only cosmetic mods in PvP and PvE from here on until they pull the plug.

EVERYONE can man up and join the ranked warzone and compete for the best stuff. It's not like there is anything stopping you. But no that would take actually effort and skill on your part.

EternalFinality's Avatar


EternalFinality
03.06.2012 , 10:55 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Richoshist View Post
Hardcore doesn't mean you're good. Hardcore means you don't have anything else going on in your life and can spend 15 hours a day at your keyboard.

Hardcore means you have little of value in your life aside from the character you created. The game is the one place where you can have something that no one else does. It is the one place where others look up to you, and envy you for what you have.

And when the devs open it up and allow everyone to have what the hardcores have, they don't feel like unique snowflakes anymore. They are right back to being average, just like they are in the real world.

They never seem to learn that in these games, it's not about what you have, it's about making the most of what you got.
Well, there is a correlation between playing time and skill - even if it's just from experience playing the game.

But you're right, hardcore does not equal skilled.

Darth_Sookie's Avatar


Darth_Sookie
03.06.2012 , 10:55 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
The large and important player constituency that I represent disagrees with the small and more or less irrelevant constituency that you claim to represent.
Your taliking about how elitist our attitude are, yet you poudly proclaim that only the constituency that you represent is relevant. It's kind of like Democratic Oppression.

Hypocrite.

AstralProjection's Avatar


AstralProjection
03.06.2012 , 10:56 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Sookie View Post
As i said in an earlier post. It's ONE aspect that is also a fun one. It's the meta game of getting the best min-max outfit, finding new combinations when they release new trinkets and gear.
And it's an additional thing to work towards that lots of people enjoy.


YOUR oppinion is that it's "what's wrong" with mmorpgs. Others beleive it's a fun addition, one that you causuals have been trying to deny us all this time.

You guys have been crying your eyes out over the 5% stat disparity that BM gear offers over Champion gear.

YOU want to limit MY fun and my sense of progression.
Nah, actually I haven't. I've been saying all along that the gear difference between BM and a fresh 50 isn't impossible, and that from "full BM" to Champion/Centurion is kind of a joke, especially Champ. BM is a sidegrade/downgrade for some people.

My point is, if it's a big deal to some people, who cares, let's get rid of it. Your sense of progression is WINNING, whether by yourself or with your friends. When you're winning 100% of your games, then you can say you can't progress anymore. While you win, you get different gear. Sure, its stats may not be better, but at least you earned something different...what's the big deal? By the time you're a perfect player that has "progressed" all the way and never loses, I'm sure there will be new content in the game, new armor, and new things for you to make your character grow with.

Even better, maybe they'll add substance to the game on TOP of gear, like a sandbox element. Maybe these changes to economics will give TOR a healthy crafting sector. Who knows?

The stat values have traditionally just inflated in these games due to the PVE sector - their gear typically gets bigger stats, because the PVE Dev's idea of difficulty is usually adding more HP to bosses, and quicker enrage timers, and making you learn to tango instead of waltz.

Nobody said you can't min-max, and look for the best combination of gear, both stat-wise, and cosmetic wise - let's face it, they'll NEVER get rid of stats - but PVP should be "relatively" even, even in this kind of game. There are enough x-factors like connection speed, PC, peripherals, etc. without letting people become significantly better as a function of time-played.

My eyes are dry as a bone.
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Laokoon's Avatar


Laokoon
03.06.2012 , 10:57 AM | #28
OP, I see you responding to every other post in this thread. I don't mean to be rude, but when you get the chance, could you please address mine as well? I am actually interested in hearing your views on the two questions I put forward.
If you respond to my post and/or argument then you agree this conversation is bound by the Rational Discussion Flow-Chart.
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EternalFinality's Avatar


EternalFinality
03.06.2012 , 10:57 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Sookie View Post
Fine lets halt ALL gear progression from now on. Only cosmetic mods in PvP and PvE from here on until they pull the plug.

EVERYONE can man up and join the ranked warzone and compete for the best stuff. It's not like there is anything stopping you. But no that would take actually effort and skill on your part.
There are many PvP games out there, even multiplayer RPGs, that have no persistent gear progression. Dota is one example.

And these games have far better PvP than TOR. It would be great if TOR were to move towards the model these superior games followed.

thanealpha's Avatar


thanealpha
03.06.2012 , 10:58 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Jimra View Post
There are like 3 threads crying about this already.

Gear crutches in PvP are stupid, everyone should be relatively equal.

Catering to a small elitist (ELITIST NOT ELITE) group of people with massive amounts of time on their hands, who want to stomp so called 'casuals' with no skill required (because for some reason putting so much time should entitle them to) will NOT make a sustainable MMO. The people that play casually, i.e. have a life outside of MMOs, are what make up the subscriptions and keep the game profitable. Making 'hardcore' players gods of pvp will just drive everyone else away.

Gear rewards are not a crutch, they're a reward; good players will always beat bad players regardless of gear. ONLY close skill levels will notice gear making a difference.

Poor players will claim it's the gear, but it's RARELY the gear.

And everyone is NOT relatively equal anyhow. If you want relatively equal play chess.