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Zanumas' Guide to PvE Shadow Tanking

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Zanumas' Guide to PvE Shadow Tanking

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ckoneful
03.05.2012 , 08:39 PM | #1
Table of Contents

1: Introduction
2: Abbreviations
3: Mirror Abilities
4: Talent Tree
5: Priority
6: Stats and Gearing
7: Consumables
8: Crew Skills


Introduction



This guide is dedicated completely to the Jedi Shadow's Kinetic Combat tree for PvE tanking. This guide will cover everything you need to know to excel in Jedi Shadow tanking.

First, an introduction to Jedi Shadow tanking from my point of view: Jedi Shadow's are the lowest armor tanks but we make up for it with our small self heals and other forms of damage reduction. Our cooldowns are some of the quickest, and strongest, out of all 3 of the tank classes. I consider us to be one of the best threat holders in the right hands as well, in AoE or single target.

As this is my first guide I've released publicly if there is anything I may have wrong or you would like to see added I am fully up for discussion and criticism. I'm always open to learning more.




CD = Cooldown
End = Endurance
WP = Willpower
Str = Strength
Crit = Critical Rating
Def = Defense
Acc = Accuracy
SS = Saber Strike
TK = Telekinetic Throw
DS = Double Strike
ST = Slow Time
FB = Force Breach
WB = Whirling Blow
FP = Force Potency
KW = Kinetic Ward
BR = Battle Readiness
Cloak = Resilience
MS = Mind Snap
Shield Wall = Deflection
Sprint = Force Speed
Grip = Force Pull
CT = Combat Technique
PA = Particle Acceleration
HS = Harnessed Shadows

Not all of these may be used throughout the guide but they are general abbreviations for Shadow skills or what I may call them



Assassinate = Spinning Strike
Dark Charge = Combat Technique
Dark Ward = Kinetic Ward
Discharge = Force Breach
Force Lightning = Telekinetic Throw
Force Shroud = Resilience
Lacerate = Whirling Blow
Overcharge Saber = Battle Readiness
Recklessness = Force Potency
Shock = Project
Thrash = Double Strike
Wither = Slow Time
Electrocute = Force Stun
Jolt = Mind Snap
Overload = Force Wave
Unbreakable Will = Force of Will
Whirlwind = Force Lift
Crushing Darkness = Mind Crush
Maul = Shadow Strike
Mind Trap = Mind Maze

Talent Tree


Recommended Spec

This is my recommended basic spec for a Shadow Tank, you'll find slight variances in other specs but I prefer to go for straight survivability over some of the minor DPS talents.

Parenthesis after "Personal Choice" are the talents you can swap those with if you feel so inclined.

Tier 1

Applied Force
Due to rotations not containing Double Strike as priority anymore, and force being better spec on jugging Project/Slow Time rotation instead of fishing for PA procs this talent is no longer favored. Personal Choice(Mental Fortitude)

Double-Bladed Saber Defense
The +4% Melee/Ranged defense alone from this talent makes it worth it, along with the force regeneration you also gain along side it. Required.

Technique Mastery
3% Elemental/Internal Damage resist per talent point as a tank is quite nice over any other choice as there is plenty of Elemental/Internal damage in Operations. Required.

Tier 2

Mental Fortitude
This talent gives you a minor increase to your health pool(1% per point). Where this was generally 1/3 points in the past with us now jugging Project/Slow Time instead of DS the points generally applied to Applied Force and better spent here. Personal choice.(Applied Force)

Elusiveness
Cloak and sprint are both amazing abilities in the Shadow Tanks arsenal, being able to cloak DoTs/Spell damage more often in Operations and sprint to your destination or break roots 1/3rd quicker is definitely worth the talent points here. Required.

Rapid Recovery
Increases the chance your Combat Technique applies it's effects by 7.5% per point. Required.

Expertise
Increases the damage dealt by your techniques by 3% per point. Essentially all this talent will do is increase the damage caused by Combat Technique's proc, which is rather weak as it does not scale with your stats. Not taken.

Tier 3

Mind Over Matter
This talent causes Sprint to remove all movement-impairing effects and causes Resilience to last 2 seconds longer. Being able to break any slow or root every 20 seconds is a godsend for a tank, along with increasing the duration of the most powerful "Spell" damage reduction tank CD in the game. Required.

Particle Acceleration
This talent grants DS, Spinning Strike and WB a 50% chance to refresh the CD on Project and make it an automatic critical hit. Required.

Kinetic Ward
Summons a barrier that increases your Shield chance by 15% for 20 seconds with 8 stacks on a 12 second cooldown. This is basically a free 15% extra shield at nearly all times and is a must have. Further increased in effectiveness by our Rakata set bonus. Required.

Shadowsight
Increases Stealth Detection level by 1 and defense by 1% per point. The stealth detection is rather meaningless for a PvE tank but the extra 2% defense is great to have, basically it's an extra 2% avoidance for 2 talent points. Required.

Tier 4

Impact Control
Increases your shield absorption by 4% and causes your BR to heal you for 10% of your maximum health when activated. This is a must have, 4% more damage absorbed when you shield along with granting you a 2min CD that heals you for 10% of your maximum health. Required.

One with the Force
Increases your force regen by 30%. This is a must have to generate enough Force to keep up decent threat and survivability. Required.

Tier 5

Bombardment
Increases the damage and threat of Project by 15%. Project is one of your main moves as Kinetic Combat and generating more theat and more damage with it is always a good thing. Required.

Stasis
Increases armor by 20% and allows Spinning Kick to be used out of stealth. More damage reduction is always a good thing, the more the better. Spinning Kick has it's uses for fights like Ancient Pylons where you need as much CC as possible on Elites. Required.

Force Pull
Essentially pulls any Elite/Strong/Standard mobs to your location which also generation a high amount of threat. This is GREAT for positioning mobs for AoE or just trying to get things in a proper position. Also one of the only moves a Shadow Tank can use from further out than 10m. Required.

Nerve Wracking
Increases damage deal to targets controlled by your Spinning Kick or Force stun by 3% per point. Force stun and Spinning kick are only usable on Non-Champion mobs and thus makes this talent largely useless. It's purely a PvP talent. Not taken.

Tier 6

Harnessed Shadows
This talent causes Project and Slow Time to add stacks of HS, this causes TK to be uninterruptible, immune to spell pushback, and heal you for 2% of your maximum health per tick at 3 stacks. Also increases the damage of TK by 25% per stack. Required.

Force Break
Increases the damage dealt by Force Breach(Combat Technique) and Slow Time by 5% and 10% respectively per point. This is needed for our AoE threat and damage output. Required.

Tier 7

Slow Time
This is one of our main AoE abilities and applies the 5% damage reduction debuff and adds stacks of HS. We need the debuff as well as any AoE we can get. Required.

Balance - Tier 1

Force Synergy
Currently used just to progress further into the Balance tree. It'll be a slight damage increase during a fight for when you do make use of DS and SS.

Jedi Resistance
Reduces all damage taken by 1% per point. Pretty much just a damage reduction, no reason not to pick up an extra 2% damage reduction as a tank. Required.

Balance - Tier 2

Upheaval
Causes project to have a 15% chance per point to throw another chunk of rock dealing 50% of normal damage. This is a damage increase to one of the main attacks of the Kinetic Combat Shadow.

Psychokinesis
Project is essentially our main ability as a Kinetic Combat Shadow and reducing the cost is quite nice, this essentially free's up force for other abilities.



Spell priority list
  • Telekinetic Throw(If at 3 stacks of HS)
  • Slow Time
  • Project
  • Force Breach(If debuff not present or <2 seconds left)
  • Spinning Strike(if target under 30% hp)
  • Double Strike(>70 Force, mob above 30% hp)
  • Saber Strike(Filler if none of the above criteria is met)

This is the basic Spell/Attack Priority I follow on a standard boss fight.

Other abilities that should be used are Mind Control, Mass Mind Control, Force Pull and Kinetic Ward.

Force Pull generates 5152 threat(IE: Same threat as a 2576 project). This makes for an amazing opener for holding threat off the start. A DPS would have to hit for 5k on their first hit to pull threat just from that.

Mass/Mind Control should be used on CD for threat as long as you do not need the taunt for fight mechanics.

Kinetic Ward should be used when needed. If the Buff has ~1 second left or your stacks are out, use it.

All cooldowns(Trinkets, Shield Wall) should be used as needed.


Mind Control/Mass Mind Control
Due to information found by Sithwarrior.com(Source) as long as you don't need this for threat wipes/picking up adds this is your highest threat generating ability now.

Slow Time
Slow time is our 31 point talent that applies the +5% damage reduction debuff as well as granting a stack of HS, this should be used on cooldown.

Force Breach(Combat Technique)
In Combat Technique this ability will be an AoE and will apply our -5% Accuracy debuff to the target and should be kept up as much as possible.

Kinetic Ward
As explained in the Talent Section this is basically a free +15%(20% with 2 piece) Shield Chance and should be kept up as much as possible without losing time on it or spending Focus unnecessarily on refreshing it too early. Most bosses will not hit fast enough to use all 8 stacks in the 12 Second CD window but the buff itself lasts 20 seconds.

Telekinetic Throw
At 3 stacks of HS this ability will heal you for 2% of your Maximum HP per tick and also buffs it's damage quite a bit. The more you heal yourself the longer you survive. Also one of our most damaging attacks.

Project
Project applies stacks of HS and behind Telekinetic Throw at 3 stacks is our hardest hitting ability(Above 30%), especially with Upheaval.

Spinning Strike
This ability can proc Particle Acceleration and thus is worth more than a DS below 30% health on the target. Also our hardest hitting single strike ability.

Double Strike
Double Strike is used as a filler when you have excess focus to spend and it won't interfere with Project/Slow Time for maximum HS stacks.

Saber Strike
This is our basic attack and essentially is only used when waiting for Force to use other abilities higher in the Priority.



I won't bother to go over each and every stat here as it's pointless to. This section will only have relevant stats to tanking.

Willpower: This is our "Primary" stat and increases all our damage done. More damage causes more threat and allows for more damage from the DPS as well.

Endurance: Endurance increases your health pool. The more health you have the more time a healer has to react and heal you and the longer you can survive without heals. Endurance should only be "stacked" up until a comfortable amount for the content you are doing and your group/healer comp.

Armor: Armor rating comes from your armor, the higher the level the armor/armoring mod the more you will have. The more armor you have, the less damage "melee" attacks will do to you. As you can't really "stack armor" there's nothing more to go into it, you'll get what you can get from getting the best armor you can get

Defense Rating: Defense increases the chance you will Parry melee attacks or Deflect ranged attacks. It Parry/Deflects 100% of the damage of a hit where as Shield will only do as much as your Absorption is at.

Shield Rating: Increases you chance to block an attack. The amount of damage reduced is based on your Absorption Rating.

Absorption Rating: Reduces the damage you take when you Shield an attack.

These stats are all pre-DR
It takes 27 Defense to equal 1% Parry(Melee)/Deflect(Ranged)
It takes 16 Shield Rating to equal 1% Shield Chance.
It takes 9 Absorption rating to equal 1% Shield Absorption.

Stat Allocation

You can only exchange Defense and Absorb for each other, and only exchange Shield and Accuracy for each other. Thus knowing this, you will want to only use Shield enhancements in your gear. The only "choices" here are really between Defense and Absorption.

Absoption > Defense when starting out, but you don't want one heavily ahead of the other. Generally they seem to swap places in the stat priority when Absorption is 100 points ahead of defense, so I recommend keeping defense and Absorption around 100 points apart while focusing more-so on Absorption.

If you'd like to figure out your specific stat weights check out this spreadsheet on Sithwarrior.

Defense is a superior stat in theory, as it reduces the attacks damage by 100% unlike Shield which is based off your absorption rating but as is shown by the ratings per percentages listed above you get much more per point out of your Shield/Absorption ratings. Credits to Kitru for this adjustment.

*Endurance is only stacked as much as you need to survive the content you are doing. If you are getting demolished in 2-3 hits it is generally recommended to get more Endurance. Though, no content currently available can do that as far as I've seen.

Augments

The choices of augments for a Shadow tank are:
Advanced Redoubt Augment 22
Advanced Absorb Augment 22
Advanced Shield Augment 22
Advanced Resolve Augment 22

Generally you will get so much shield off your enhancements/ear/implants that you do not need to ever Augment for Shield. Your choices are really between the Defense and Absorb augments, you will use them to keep balance between your Defense and Absorb. Remember, as stated above, you want to keep your absorb roughly 100 points ahead but no further than that.

The Resolve augments can be used if you feel you need more threat, though generally in my experience they aren't needed.



The Stims

Exotech Fortitude Stim is the best choice currently for a Shadow Tank. This adds 128 Endurance and 52 Defense for 2 hours and persists through death.

Rakata Fortitude Stim this is the reusable Biochem-only option for the stim, it adds 112 Endurance and 46 Defense.

The Adrenals

Exotech Absorb Adrenal is the best choice for all fights that are predominately "Melee" damage. This stim will add 1575 armor for 15 Seconds on a 3 minute cooldown.

Rakata Absorb Adrenal this si the reusable Biochem-only option for the adrenal, it adds 1725 armor for 15 seconds on a 3 minute CD.

As far as I know these are the only options this game currently has for Consumables.



Synthweaving
Synthweaving allows you to craft armor for Force-Users(Strength Medium/Heavy, Willpower Light armor).

Generally, at this point in the game synthweaving doesn't serve much use past making Augmentation kits for yourself, sadly.

Artifice
Artifice allows you to craft Lightsaber Hilts, Color Crystals, Enhancements as well as Relics at end-game.

At end-game Artifice offers you the ability to craft yourself High-End Enahncements, LS Hilts, and Color Crystals for your armor. The Crystals are the only non-binding out of the epics here so they made be gained from another person with Artifice or from High-end sabers.

Artifice can currently make the highest level available Hilts, Crystals, and Enhancements.

Cybertech
Cybertech allows you to craft Bombs, Armorings, Mods and Ear Pieces.

Cybertech can currently make the highest level available Armorings, Mods and Ear Pieces. The armoring do not have the set bonuses though they are great for moddable best/bracers.

The bombs are Cybertech exclusive and can add extra damage.

Biochem
Biochem allows you to craft Adrenals, Stims, Health Packs as well as Implants.

Biochem offers reusable Adrenals, Stims, and health packs at end-game which are all extremely useful. Though, they are no longer currently the best ingame. The crafted, non-reusable ones, are currently the best you can get.

The Rakata Medpack on use also grants you +15% HP for 15 seconds which can be used as an added tank CD.

Armortech
Armortech allows you to craft armor for Non-Force-Users(Aim Heavy, Cunning Medium armor) and thus makes this largely useless to Shadows.

Can make Augmentation Kits, and Absorb/Defense Augments.

Armstech
Armstech allows the creation of Guns, Vibro Knives and Barrels which are largely useless to Shadows.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.05.2012 , 10:05 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by ckoneful View Post
Mental Fortitude
This talent gives you a minor increase to your health pool, there aren't really any other choices that will increase your survivability but you can move talents from here into other things that may be needed for specific encounters. Purely personal choice.

Rapid Recovery
Increases the chance your Combat Technique applies it's effects by 7.5% per point. With one of the recent patches changing Combat Technique to have a 4.5 Second CD this is debatable and choosing more Endurance or more DS damage may be preferable. Personal Choice.
It's important to note that both of these talents provide additional hp/sec as their primary form of additional survivability. The additional hp you get from Mental Fortitude are so comparatively small that you cannot rely on them in order to really provide a realistic cushion of survivability: with 20k hp, 2% additional hp (what you would get compared to putting the points into Rapid Recovery), amounts to 350 additional hp. Unless you've ever been taken down to that specific window of hp, the additional hp it provides are only useful insofar as the additional hp/sec from TK Throw.

As such, you have to consider the hp/sec as the primary survivability contributors. Mental Fortitude's additional hp/sec contribution is variable based upon your max hp while Rapid Recovery's is static. The math for each indicates that the breakpoint wherein Mental Fortitude begins providing more hp/sec than Rapid Recovery is when you have in excess of 30k hp. Since we don't get anywhere near that, Rapid Recovery is the better option, since it provides greater survivability *and* adds an additional damage component.

In short, Rapid Recovery is the better option for both offensive and defensive reasons compared to Mental Fortitude.

Quote:
  • Spell priority list
  • Mind Control/Mass Mind Control*
  • Slow Time(If debuff not present or <2 seconds left)
  • Force Breach(If debuff not present or <2 seconds left)
  • Kinetic Ward(If 1 Charge Left or <2 seconds left on buff)
  • Telekinetic Throw(If at 3 stacks of HS and heal needed)
  • Project(If PA procced)
  • Spinning Strike(if target under 30%)
  • Double Strike(If PA not procced)
  • Saber Strike(Only if PA is procced and not enough force for Project)
You're getting the priorities completely wrong.

First off, Mind Control, Mass Mind Control, and Kinetic Ward are all off of the GCD. They don't belong on the priority list since you should simply be using them when appropriate; they have no serious interaction with the rest of you attacks.

Secondly, Slow Time should be used on cooldown. Now that it generates HS stacks, it is both the fastest and cheapest method of generating HS stacks. Do not simply use it for the debuff application.

Third, TK Throw should be place at the highest place in the priority. It should be used regardless of whether you need the heal or not since it is your hardest hitting power. In addition, as a tank, you can safely make the assumption that you will be taking damage on a rather consistent basis so, even if you don't need the heal immediately, chances are you will have some use for it over the next 3 seconds.

Your priority, as such, should actually be as such: FB(for debuff)>TK Throw(3 stacks)>Slow Time(on CD)>Project(PA buff)>Spinning Strike>Double Strike>Saber Strike.

Quote:
The general priority I follow is Endurance* > Defense Rating > Shield Rating > Absorption Rating

Defense is considered superior as it reduces the attacks damage by 100% unlike shield which is based off your absorption rating. There may be a point in gear where you have enough absorption to make Shield Rating overtake defense but I have not mathed that out as of yet. You will also generally end up choosing between Defense and Absorption on Mods/Enhancements and thus never really reach that point.
Defense is only considered superior for the reason you provide by people that have no idea what they're doing. As you have readily admitted before, Defense rating contributes value at a *much* lower rate than Absorb or Shield rating; the ratios of ratings required to advance a static amount are roughly 4:2:1 for Defense:Shield:Absorb.

The actual answer to the question of what you should stack depends entirely upon your stats. At low percentage values of Defense, Shield, and Absorb, you should stack Defense since Defense is a static, linear contributor. At high percentages, you should stack Shield and Absorb since the value is dependent upon the presence of high values of Shield and Absorb.

The simple breakpoint (ignoring DR) between Defense and Shield/Absorb stacking is the point at which your product of your Shield and Absorb is 14.06%. For those too lazy to do the math, this generally means having roughly 45% Shield Chance and 31% Absorb (you should be able to manage this when you're geared to start running HM FPs). As such, any 50 PvE tank should be stacking Shield and Absorb rather than Defense. You shouldn't ignore Defense, but you should be stacking Absorb substantially beyond it.

As such, for level 50 Shadows, your stat priority should be Absorb>Shield>Defense>Willpower>Endurance.
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ckoneful
03.05.2012 , 10:43 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It's important to note that both of these talents provide additional hp/sec as their primary form of additional survivability. The additional hp you get from Mental Fortitude are so comparatively small that you cannot rely on them in order to really provide a realistic cushion of survivability: with 20k hp, 2% additional hp (what you would get compared to putting the points into Rapid Recovery), amounts to 350 additional hp. Unless you've ever been taken down to that specific window of hp, the additional hp it provides are only useful insofar as the additional hp/sec from TK Throw.

As such, you have to consider the hp/sec as the primary survivability contributors. Mental Fortitude's additional hp/sec contribution is variable based upon your max hp while Rapid Recovery's is static. The math for each indicates that the breakpoint wherein Mental Fortitude begins providing more hp/sec than Rapid Recovery is when you have in excess of 30k hp. Since we don't get anywhere near that, Rapid Recovery is the better option, since it provides greater survivability *and* adds an additional damage component.

In short, Rapid Recovery is the better option for both offensive and defensive reasons compared to Mental Fortitude.



You're getting the priorities completely wrong.

First off, Mind Control, Mass Mind Control, and Kinetic Ward are all off of the GCD. They don't belong on the priority list since you should simply be using them when appropriate; they have no serious interaction with the rest of you attacks.

Secondly, Slow Time should be used on cooldown. Now that it generates HS stacks, it is both the fastest and cheapest method of generating HS stacks. Do not simply use it for the debuff application.

Third, TK Throw should be place at the highest place in the priority. It should be used regardless of whether you need the heal or not since it is your hardest hitting power. In addition, as a tank, you can safely make the assumption that you will be taking damage on a rather consistent basis so, even if you don't need the heal immediately, chances are you will have some use for it over the next 3 seconds.

Your priority, as such, should actually be as such: FB(for debuff)>TK Throw(3 stacks)>Slow Time(on CD)>Project(PA buff)>Spinning Strike>Double Strike>Saber Strike.



Defense is only considered superior for the reason you provide by people that have no idea what they're doing. As you have readily admitted before, Defense rating contributes value at a *much* lower rate than Absorb or Shield rating; the ratios of ratings required to advance a static amount are roughly 4:2:1 for Defense:Shield:Absorb.

The actual answer to the question of what you should stack depends entirely upon your stats. At low percentage values of Defense, Shield, and Absorb, you should stack Defense since Defense is a static, linear contributor. At high percentages, you should stack Shield and Absorb since the value is dependent upon the presence of high values of Shield and Absorb.

The simple breakpoint (ignoring DR) between Defense and Shield/Absorb stacking is the point at which your product of your Shield and Absorb is 14.06%. For those too lazy to do the math, this generally means having roughly 45% Shield Chance and 31% Absorb (you should be able to manage this when you're geared to start running HM FPs). As such, any 50 PvE tank should be stacking Shield and Absorb rather than Defense. You shouldn't ignore Defense, but you should be stacking Absorb substantially beyond it.

As such, for level 50 Shadows, your stat priority should be Absorb>Shield>Defense>Willpower>Endurance.
Alright, I adjusted the priority, took the taunts/ward off priority and added notes instead. Makes much more sense. I had originally made the priority before that patch, just added the taunts before posting here, wasn't even thinking of the buff to Slow time even though I do use it on CD now myself.

The talent choices I put as personal choice but your explanation does actually make sense, both are rather small though so that's why I had just tagged with personal choice. I will adjust the spec accordingly.

The stat priority I had as Defense being the best as the only hard fight this tier seems to be Soa and if my theory is correct none of his attacks can be shielded, right? Though, this is a general guide so I will adjust to what you've said here for general all-around stat priority.
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Kitru
03.05.2012 , 11:00 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by ckoneful View Post
The stat priority I had as Defense being the best as the only hard fight this tier seems to be Soa and if my theory is correct none of his attacks can be shielded, right?
None of his attacks can be dodge/parried either. Force/Tech attacks use your Resistance chance instead of your Defense chance and can't be Shielded. As such, none of the tank stats are even remotely useful on Soa since Resistance chance is unaffected by your gear. Similarly, Soa is all elemental and internal damage, so armor doesn't matter at all either. Soa can be just as easily be tanked by a DPS character with taunt as by an actual tank since none of the tank stats matter in the least. The developers are supposed to be addressing this concern sometime to allow the tank stats to provide some kind of benefit against Force/Tech attacks to alleviate some of these issues, but I'm not entirely sure what they plan on doing exactly. I expect that the prioritization will remain the same.
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ckoneful
03.05.2012 , 11:06 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
None of his attacks can be dodge/parried either. Force/Tech attacks use your Resistance chance instead of your Defense chance and can't be Shielded. As such, none of the tank stats are even remotely useful on Soa since Resistance chance is unaffected by your gear. Similarly, Soa is all elemental and internal damage, so armor doesn't matter at all either. Soa can be just as easily be tanked by a DPS character with taunt as by an actual tank since none of the tank stats matter in the least. The developers are supposed to be addressing this concern sometime to allow the tank stats to provide some kind of benefit against Force/Tech attacks to alleviate some of these issues, but I'm not entirely sure what they plan on doing exactly. I expect that the prioritization will remain the same.
Ah, I was operating under the false assumption we could at the very least deflect his attacks. Guess I should start bringing my DPS set then.
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ckoneful
03.06.2012 , 04:54 PM | #6
Alright, I lost roughly 4% defense to gain 10% Absorption last night... Now, I'm going to use numbers I come up with to math this out as I don't exactly know/remember boss attack speeds or damage in this game, if anyone could offer those I'll redo this.

Now, let's assume a boss swings every 2 second for 3000 damage and the fight lasts 5 minutes and this is all after armor/other forms of damage reduction is considered.

150 attacks go off in the 5 minute fight for a total of 450,000 damage, 4% more defense I'd avoid roughly 6 more attacks negating 18,000 damage roughly. Now, I shield 61% of the attacks for 46% damage reduction... I negate 27,450 damage from the 10% absorb gained. This is assuming my theory is correct and everything works as I did the math on.

Yep, absorption is better, thank you for making me look into this further Kitru! If you have anything else to add I'm open to it! Now I should go further into this and math when each thing gets better or worse for the guide...

EDIT: I actually lost less defense than I thought, I didn't have my Stim up for the testing which makes absorption even better than my thoughts above.

I'll math this out better later, though it seems someone over at Sithwarrior already has a spreadsheet for this /doh
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Arbegla
03.06.2012 , 06:30 PM | #7
If your going to consider Sithwarrior.com at all, then you need to basically disregard everything Kitru tells you.

His rotation still uses the old 'Double strike/spinning strike until PA, then Project' with Slow time and Force breach used on cool down, and TK throw used at 3 stacks.

While it isn't entirely wrong, its not what sithwarrior is preaching at all. Basically, due to the changes on Slow Time, you need to be using Both Slow time and Project at much as possible (every cool down) and limiting your Double Strike to only be used when everything is on cool down AND you have upwards of 80 force available. PA isn't as useful, especially if you are using Force Potency on cool down, so you don't need to 'fish' for PA procs anymore. This allows you to get 3 stacks of HS every 12 or so seconds, and allows you to use TK throw that often. Thus increasing your overall damage (due to HS boosting TK throw's damage) and your overall mitigation (due to the constant healing of HS) as shown here

This also boosts the benefit of endurance (and thus mental foritude) higher, as you'll be healing about 1% of your hit points every second, disregarding any Combat Technique procs you get, and limiting the value of Rapid Recovery. This is also addressed at sithwarrior.com here

Also, Shield is next to useless until a certain gear level, due to the high shield chance Shadows already have (35-40% with kinetic ward) so you really only want to stack defense and absorb until your absorb matchs your shield chance (with kinetic ward active) and then you want to increase all 3, slightly lowering your defense chance to increase both your shield and absorb chance. This is again shown on sithwarrior.com about here:

While your guide does cover the basics, i feel you would be better off looking over the many discussion over at sithwarrior.com in regards to shadow and assassin tanks, and going off that.

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ckoneful
03.06.2012 , 08:15 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
If your going to consider Sithwarrior.com at all, then you need to basically disregard everything Kitru tells you.

His rotation still uses the old 'Double strike/spinning strike until PA, then Project' with Slow time and Force breach used on cool down, and TK throw used at 3 stacks.

While it isn't entirely wrong, its not what sithwarrior is preaching at all. Basically, due to the changes on Slow Time, you need to be using Both Slow time and Project at much as possible (every cool down) and limiting your Double Strike to only be used when everything is on cool down AND you have upwards of 80 force available. PA isn't as useful, especially if you are using Force Potency on cool down, so you don't need to 'fish' for PA procs anymore. This allows you to get 3 stacks of HS every 12 or so seconds, and allows you to use TK throw that often. Thus increasing your overall damage (due to HS boosting TK throw's damage) and your overall mitigation (due to the constant healing of HS) as shown here

This also boosts the benefit of endurance (and thus mental foritude) higher, as you'll be healing about 1% of your hit points every second, disregarding any Combat Technique procs you get, and limiting the value of Rapid Recovery. This is also addressed at sithwarrior.com here

Also, Shield is next to useless until a certain gear level, due to the high shield chance Shadows already have (35-40% with kinetic ward) so you really only want to stack defense and absorb until your absorb matchs your shield chance (with kinetic ward active) and then you want to increase all 3, slightly lowering your defense chance to increase both your shield and absorb chance. This is again shown on sithwarrior.com about here:

While your guide does cover the basics, i feel you would be better off looking over the many discussion over at sithwarrior.com in regards to shadow and assassin tanks, and going off that.
Alright, I'll do that. I actually was toying around with using Project on CD instead of trying for procs myself ingame, though fraps has been continuously crashing for me lately so I haven't been able to make use of that to actually count and watch things. My original priority list when I was first making this had Project right where it is right now, but without the tag on it to only use during PA.

I've actually looked at that avoidance table before, and I know shield isn't amazing to stack but the problem is it's generally not going to be choosing Between Shield and Defense/Absorption, it's Shield/Accuracy and Defense/Absorption that change places. I really don't know how to put a real stat priority list up there right now going off our current mods available I've seen to be quite honest. What's up there right now is just what seems right from Kitru and reading.

Also, I agreed with the Mental Fortitude talk there originally, but currently from what I've seen of HM(Though, the people at SithWarrior are probably doing NMM) nothing hits hard enough to make the hit points outweigh the HPM of Rapid Recovery after actually thinking about it. The only value endurance has is to make you survive longer, but if you're never in danger of dying then Rapid Recovery's heal should help smooth things out better than having slightly higher HP, IMO.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.06.2012 , 10:39 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by arbegla
While it isn't entirely wrong, its not what sithwarrior is preaching at all.
Actually, I just read the relevant thread completely and checked all of the information. The actual debate hasn't been answered yet as to which generates better damage (the calcs done didn't calculate the damage correctly and the posters even mentioned that), though it's relatively obvious that the removal of Double Strike completely is going to generate better mitigation. My primary concern is that Double Strike actually hits pretty hard for its cost (80% of the damage of non-PA Project at 60% of the cost) and is actually relatively Force neutral (23 Force when you'll regen ~17.5 Force in the intervening time for a net cost of 5.5 per use). As such, I stick with the traditional viewpoint on the attack string rather than a more extremist interpretation that removes it from the attack string.

In addition, completely removing DS and spamming Project on CD would not generate a 12 second use cycle for TK Throw. Project generates .167 stacks per second and ST generates .125 stacks per second. This means you'll get one stack every 10.3 seconds. TK Throw has a 3 sec channel time, so it's actually a 13.3 second use paradigm and that's completely discounting time loss to lag, ability queues, and ability overlap (which will put it closer to a 15-18 second use ratio). It's going to be similarly resource sustainable compared to the traditional prioritization while doing less damage (25% more TK Throw but all other DPS goes down).

Either way, now that I've read up on it, I don't think that either should be explicitly thrown out as prioritization structures. The value of Mental Fortitude is still present because, even with a 25% greater contribution from Mental Fortitude, Rapid Recovery is still the better hp/sec option. The breakpoint would be brought down a bit, but it is still so high that it's impossible to get there as it stands.

A better response, rather than continuing to try and weigh Mental Fortitude against Rapid Recovery (which is going to continue to favor Rapid Recovery, especially if the devs make CT scale with gear which I'm expecting in 1.2), is to compare Mental Fortitude to Applied Force. If you drop DS out of your attack prioritization, Applied Force is now largely worthless, which means that you are better off spending those 2 points on Mental Fortitude and getting both Rapid Recovery and Mental Fortitude at their max values. The difference between the two specs would be a that the Applied Force spec and DS inclusive prioritization would deal marginally more damage and the Mental Fortitude and DS exclusive prioritization would have marginally more survivability. Depending on how much you trust your healers and dps determines which you should really go with.
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ckoneful's Avatar


ckoneful
03.06.2012 , 11:19 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Actually, I just read the relevant thread completely and checked all of the information. The actual debate hasn't been answered yet as to which generates better damage (the calcs done didn't calculate the damage correctly and the posters even mentioned that), though it's relatively obvious that the removal of Double Strike completely is going to generate better mitigation. My primary concern is that Double Strike actually hits pretty hard for its cost (80% of the damage of non-PA Project at 60% of the cost) and is actually relatively Force neutral (23 Force when you'll regen ~17.5 Force in the intervening time for a net cost of 5.5 per use). As such, I stick with the traditional viewpoint on the attack string rather than a more extremist interpretation that removes it from the attack string.

In addition, completely removing DS and spamming Project on CD would not generate a 12 second use cycle for TK Throw. Project generates .167 stacks per second and ST generates .125 stacks per second. This means you'll get one stack every 10.3 seconds. TK Throw has a 3 sec channel time, so it's actually a 13.3 second use paradigm and that's completely discounting time loss to lag, ability queues, and ability overlap (which will put it closer to a 15-18 second use ratio). It's going to be similarly resource sustainable compared to the traditional prioritization while doing less damage (25% more TK Throw but all other DPS goes down).

Either way, now that I've read up on it, I don't think that either should be explicitly thrown out as prioritization structures. The value of Mental Fortitude is still present because, even with a 25% greater contribution from Mental Fortitude, Rapid Recovery is still the better hp/sec option. The breakpoint would be brought down a bit, but it is still so high that it's impossible to get there as it stands.

A better response, rather than continuing to try and weigh Mental Fortitude against Rapid Recovery (which is going to continue to favor Rapid Recovery, especially if the devs make CT scale with gear which I'm expecting in 1.2), is to compare Mental Fortitude to Applied Force. If you drop DS out of your attack prioritization, Applied Force is now largely worthless, which means that you are better off spending those 2 points on Mental Fortitude and getting both Rapid Recovery and Mental Fortitude at their max values. The difference between the two specs would be a that the Applied Force spec and DS inclusive prioritization would deal marginally more damage and the Mental Fortitude and DS exclusive prioritization would have marginally more survivability. Depending on how much you trust your healers and dps determines which you should really go with.
I still see using DS as being worth it, as long as using it won't interfere with using the next project, the few extra procs throughout the fight and damage will still most likely be worth more than 2% more Endurance, or for the people for like the 2% more endurance more it'll still outweigh rapid recovery.
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