For those of you that don't know me, I'm Kor, one of the moderators out at Sithwarrior.com. I usually frequent the Sorcerer forums out here and cooked up this post originally in regards to the mechanics of Cloud Mind (the SI class's 45-second cooldown threat drop ability), but some of the information is important enough (and different enough from the mechanics of many recent MMOs and the community's current understanding of threat) that I felt it best to share it with a broader audience. By the way, I'll be cross-posting this to several other forum sections, and all of you may feel free to post it to any other forums as you wish (though I do ask you to include a link to the original thread or credit me ("Kor") and cmf)

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So...threat. Many of us have a fair idea of how it works, but many of the specifics are still a bit vague. Well, we at sithwarrior.com have been hard at work figuring out those very specifics, and some very interesting information has come to light over the last few days, and I'm here to share with you what we've found.

First off, I would like to credit cmf out at Sithwarrior.com for much of this information. His diligent and tireless testing is the source of much of what you see here. If you don't care about the hows and whys of all of it, skip to the summary at the bottom. Further details on the tests used, as well as continued discussion on the subject, can be found in this thread

First off, lets talk about the class threat dumps. As many of you have probably heard, the current understanding is that these abilities (excepting Force Camo, Extrication, and Intercede) are completely broken, only reducing the player's threat by 0.25%. I'm responsible for a fair amount of the spread of that particular tid-bit of information (as well as the original testing that demonstrated it), and it unfortunately has proven wrong due to a faulty assumption. Here's the details:

The original test I did to demonstrate it's failure to work was simple: I had a tank generate a decent pool of threat (~50k or more), then stop attacking. I then attacked the mob myself until I just pulled threat from it, which by threat understanding at that point would put me at just over 110% of the tank's threat. I then cast Cloud Mind, which should have pushed the mob back over to the tank (as 1/(1.10*0.75) = 1.212, which is past the melee threat pull threshold).

Unfortunately, this relied on one specific premise that we'd never actually fully tested: the range of the "melee" threat threshold. As it turns out, the range of the "melee" threat threshold has a much smaller range than we expected, in fact much smaller than your actual melee attacks. You often have to be inside the actual mob model for you to be in melee threat pull range (I suspect it's 4 meters from the center of the target's model, rather than 4m from the edge of the target's model). Anything outside of this, and you count as a "ranged" target for threat thresholds, even though you are both using melee attacks and within range of the target's melee attacks. This means in my tests, I was actually at a 130% of the tank's threat, and 1/(1.30*0.75) = 102.6%, insufficient to pull threat back off me (particularly since the tank was at maximum melee range and therefore would need 130% of my threat!).

Now, the practical side of all of this: Extrication, Intercede, and Force Camo are still 100 times as powerful as Cloud Mind and other class threat drops, verified by the game files. This means that they are 2500% threat drops, effectively placing the target of them at 0 threat regardless of their current threat level.

Another interesting mechanic we discovered was with taunts. They set the tank's threat to how much would be necessary for the tank to pull of the current aggro target (based on his current position relative to the taunted target), even if the current aggro target is said tank! For example, if a tank (standing at max melee range, so 130% threat threshold) generates 10000 threat, then while the mob is still attacking him he taunts it, his threat would be set to 13000 threat, even though the mob was attacking him the entire time. Thus using taunts in a tanking rotation can be a massive source of threat generation, particularly late in the fight.

Think about it this way. If you're halfway through a 2 million HP boss, and you've done say 15% of the damage, you've done 150000 damage, and thus generated (roughly) 225000 threat. Now, while standing at max range on the boss, you stop attacking and instead just cast nothing but Taunt on cooldown (every 15 seconds). For first taunt would generate 225000*0.3 = 67500 threat (4500 tps), 87750 threat the second cast (5850 tps), 114075 threat the third (7605 tps), and so on, and that's casting nothing but taunt on CD. Basically, unless there's a tank swap coming up, or it's early in the fight (where a dps might be pulling off you), casting Taunt on cooldown is your single highest TPS ability, and it's off the GCD!

On a less ground-breaking news channel, applying buffs does not seem to generate any threat (we've narrowed Static Barrier down to generating no more than 80 threat, we're working on reducing that bound further)

Lastly, threat multipliers stack. Example: Wither (T7 Darkness Assassin ability), which generates "a high amount of threat", has a 50% threat multiplier baked in. Tanks also generate 50% additional threat in their tanking stance. Thus Wither cast by an Assassin in Dark Charge will generate 1.5*1.5 = 225% of damage done as threat.

Summary / TL;DR version:

- Cloud Mind and all other class threat dumps (except those below) drop threat by 25%.

- Extrication, Intercede, and Force Camo (and mirrors) set the target's threat to 0.

- You need 30% more than the tank's threat to pull aggro, even in melee range (unless you're really close to the target).

- Taunt generates either 10% or 30% of your current threat (depending on how close you are to the target, see above bullet), even if you are the mob's current aggro target.

- Applying buffs generates either zero or an extremely small amount of threat, even ones involved with healing like Static Barrier/Force Armor.

- Threat multipliers stack multiplicatively (ie. an attack that generates 50% additional threat, done by a tank that does another 50% additional threat, would generate 225% of damage as threat).

When does a supposedly informative post become advertising for your own website?

 

Like the poster above, very interresting numbers, but what's the point?

It's information about how to play the game.. What is wrong with posting this in general?

Where did I say there was anything wrong? I just attempted to humorously point out that the guys website was prominently mentioned and linked about 5 times in the first paragraph and read like one long advert.

my bad..

I've always saved using taunt for ewhen it was actually needed but knowing these taunt machanics maybe I will use it differently.

How are you measuring threat in the game currently?

Usually floating combat text, along with a few other methods. Testing by recording how much damage is necessary to pull off another target, knowing how much damage the other target has done as well, is the easiest way.

As for linking "my" site, it's not mine. I'm just a moderator there. In addition, though it may not have penetrated as far as General yet, sithwarrior.com is basically EJ for SWTOR. My apologies if my membership on the moderator staff on that site interferes with your willingness to let me link to my sources on the theorycrafting hub for SWTOR.

How are you measuring threat in the game currently?

They are probably using something that’s not allowed.

But I could be wrong.

Now you are done Could you please answer my serious question I tried to ask.

Could you explain for the layman what the overall effect of this actually is.

Could you explain for the layman what the overall effect of this actually is.

Well, several things. First, I am attempting to stem the spread of the false information about the class threat drops being broken (since I was the original source of that information, at least out here on swtor.com). Second, taunts are amazing for generating threat, and that's a really good thing for tanks to know. Third, melee can increase their threat cap by 18.2% by standing at max range (another really good thing for people to know). Lastly, that Extrication, Intercede, and Force Camo are complete threat wipes rather than simply threat decreases, which may be important to know for some people (and is still useful to know for most). Some of the other pieces (for example, the fact that Static Barrier generates little-to-no threat) may be important for some classes and specs as well.

Cracking. Thanks.

So as a dps Jedi I want to be as close as possible to generate LESS threat?

Thanks for this, biggest surprise for me is that taunt does increase threat even if the taunter is the mobs current target.

Which is incredibly useful information to have (slightly surprised that other posters can't seem to see why this is useful to know but there ya go.)

Crack on, I'll remove my posts when it's done.

 

Could you answer my serious question I tried to ask.

 

Could you explain for the layman what the overall effect of this actually is.

Go to most of the tanking class forums on this very site. All have a ton of threads complaining about threat and lack hereof, Guardian/Juggernauts more than Shadow/Sin and Vans/PT's, but they're there, across the board.

This thread - and Sithwarrior.com in general, a marvellous site and an invaluable resource for SWTOR itself, moreso as time progresses and as the game seeks to establish competitive sub-scenes - helps further the understanding of threat and will hopefully contribute to making things more understandable for many aspiring tanks as well as dps'ers, who feel they're throttled by threat limitations.

The OP is a welcome addition to a game that seems hell-bent intent on not being transparent. It illuminates mechanics and advance the theoretical mapping of the game. Which is sorely needed as it creates accountability and puts pressure on Bioware to improve areas of their game that is currently not easily discernable by the average paying customer (not so much in the case of this thread, but in others).

Lastly, considering the lack of quality of posts on this forum, how can you not appreciate empirically founded posts with an introduction to methodology, background and credentials? Academically inspired articles may not be to your liking, but there's no need to bash it. If we are to use WoW as a reference, ElitistJerks ended up wielding huge influence on the actual game development, determining what worked and what didn't, which in turn caused the playerbase to - rightfully so - ask for class balancing, proper scaling abilities et al. More importantly, they asked for these things on empirically founded arguments rather than "z0mg I got nuked by an Operative, NURF!!! (P.S. I had forgotten to repair and was naked at the time)"

So as a dps Jedi I want to be as close as possible to generate LESS threat?

No no, you, as a melee, want to be at max melee range. How close you are does not affect how much threat you generate, just how much it takes for you to pull off the tank. If you're at max melee range, it will (usually, won't say always) take 130% of the tank's threat to pull instead of the 110% it would take if you're closer in.

Cracking. Thanks.

 

So as a dps Jedi I want to be as close as possible to generate LESS threat?

from what I read as long as you are further than 4 meters from the center of the target you need to do 130% of current target threat to pull agro. If you are within 4 meters then only 110% threat to pull agro.

For taunt as a threat generator best use of this is from range.

As a tank If you lose threat to a ranged then wait until the mob has travelled further than 4 meters from you and then hit taunt

Cracking. Thanks.

 

So as a dps Jedi I want to be as close as possible to generate LESS threat?

No, read it again...

Third, melee can increase their threat cap by 18.2% by standing at max range

I made it bold it to make it even more obvious.

No no, you, as a melee, want to be at max melee range. How close you are does not affect how much threat you generate, just how much it takes for you to pull off the tank. If you're at max melee range, it will (usually, won't say always) take 130% of the tank's threat to pull instead of the 110% it would take if you're closer in.

Got it.

Now all the need to do is introduce a ruler into the game so I know how far off I am and I'm sorted.

from what I read as long as you are further than 4 meters from the center of the target you need to do 130% of current target threat to pull agro. If you are within 4 meters then only 110% threat to pull agro.

 

For taunt as a threat generator best use of this is from range.

 

If you lose threat to a ranged then wait until the mob has travelled further than 4 meters from you and then hit taunt

Well, I should specify, this isn't a hard-and-fast rule. The mobs we've tested this on (which were of several different sizes and shapes) required you to be significantly closer to the mob than maximum melee range (and the range at which the mob could attack you) in order to be in the 110% bracket. Some mobs may not have this behavior, but I suspect most will. The 4m range was a guess, I have no data to back that up. Please don't spread it as fact.

As for tanks, on most mobs, if you're at max melee range, you're already in the "ranged" category on threat, so taunts will generate 30% of current threat instead of 10%.

Got it.

 

Now all the need to do is introduce a ruler into the game so I know how far off I am and I'm sorted.

I assume this would work

You can use an ability that you have to be within 4m to use.. I think most classes get one. If the ability is lit up then you are wihtin 4m if darkened then you are futher than 4m