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Guardian vs. Shadow vs. Vanguard


-Sithis-

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My valor 68 guardian with full tier 2/3 gear.

 

http://imageshack.us/g/94/focus3x.jpg/

 

My lvl 19 Assassin in 2 consecutive WZ's.

 

http://imageshack.us/g/23/swtor2012030111361568.jpg/

 

My lvl 12 Vanguard in 2 consecutive WZ's.

 

http://imageshack.us/g/718/win2l.jpg/

 

 

IMO, doing 300k/100k/30k on a lvl 19 Assassin tells me I can do at least 500k/150k/75k at lvl 50 with champion gear. In fact, I know a shadow that has done 639k/150k/80k in champion/BM gear. I know a vanguard that has done over 500k damage in CENTURION gear. And this is all after the surge nerf.

 

I have extensive experience in Focus, Vig, and various hybrids. I consistently get 350-500k damage in Vig and Focus, and all I do in this game is PvP.

 

If you don't believe me, come hang out with me on Warriors of the Shadow server.

 

Otherwise, explain how it makes sense that a shadow can get 600k+/150k+/75k+ in full tank spec, while I cap out around the stats shown in my first link.

 

I do fine in most 1v1 and group situations, but as soon as more people figure out how to play Shadow/Vanguard, Guardian's will have less and less purpose outside of Huttball.

 

Summary: Justify a Shadow getting 600k+ damage in full tank spec, or show me a Guardian that can do the same.

 

 

***EDIT: Redid OP for greater clarity and simplicity!

Edited by -Sithis-
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What spec are you as a 20 assassin?

 

My 25 shadow kinetic spec NEVER sees that kind of damage or protection. The games are over too fast and the force regeneration at low levels blows ***.

 

From what I've read, he's said his shadow is largely a tank spec.

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What spec are you as a 20 assassin?

 

My 25 shadow kinetic spec NEVER sees that kind of damage or protection. The games are over too fast and the force regeneration at low levels blows ***.

 

Currently at lvl 20 I have all 11 points in the shared tree (Balance). I also have a lvl 34 Shadow that I have no problem getting top damage/protection on every game. Basically, you get Force in Balance and the Double Slash/Project buffs, and you are golden in Combat Technique.

 

The problem is how Shadow can enter Combat Technique and get over 40% damage reduction and take almost no DPS loss, while Guardians who use Soresu build half as much focus.

 

EDIT: Here is the spec I would have as a lvl 25 Shadow.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601MZZf0cRd.1

Edited by -Sithis-
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Vanguard> shadow> guardian in damage when it comes to tank specs.

 

I'm a focus guardian, in an average pug voidstar I can easily get 500-600k damage.

 

A full tank vanguard can easily break 500k damage in voidstar regularly while having insane survivability.

 

I've never seen a tank assassin/shadow break 500k though, maybe this was before they nerfed hybrid specs for shadows.

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Awesome, I'll switch it up. What level should I switch to tank spec?

 

 

 

Also, my main is a lvl 50 focus guardian and I'll agree that the tank tree doesn't have enough damage especially when compared to energy consumption / gain.

 

shadows specced tank have: aoe force slow that does damage on low CD, force breach aoe lowers acc automatically no points needed,force pull, procced high damage tele throws procced high damage projects, an ability that makes all force/tech attacks useless, stealth out of combat, stealth in general, better energy system.

 

Guardians specced tank get: Full armor reduction move that does decent dmg but hardly any to heavy armor opponents, some SPECCED cc whereas shadows already have stun, lift and cloak mezz; aoe mezz(shared w/ knights), aoe snare, guardian leap, force leap, and some terrible talents that don't really effect pvp too much.

 

Guardians are a different beast than shadow, a bit tougher to play well, but honestly there is something lacking in that left tree.

Edited by Invictusthetaru
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Vanguard> shadow> guardian in damage when it comes to tank specs.

 

I'm a focus guardian, in an average pug voidstar I can easily get 500-600k damage.

 

A full tank vanguard can easily break 500k damage in voidstar regularly while having insane survivability.

 

I've never seen a tank assassin/shadow break 500k though, maybe this was before they nerfed hybrid specs for shadows.

 

Supposedly these pictures are post nerf.

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Vanguard> shadow> guardian in damage when it comes to tank specs.

 

I'm a focus guardian, in an average pug voidstar I can easily get 500-600k damage.

 

A full tank vanguard can easily break 500k damage in voidstar regularly while having insane survivability.

 

I've never seen a tank assassin/shadow break 500k though, maybe this was before they nerfed hybrid specs for shadows.

 

Nope. I have a Shadow guildie that got 639k Damage, 150k protection, and ~80k healing in one of the first Warzone's I did with him about 2 weeks ago (after surge nerf/shadow update). His spec was 31/0/10 (not a hybrid).

 

And just to clarify, no nerf took place on the shadow class. In fact, the spec that uses the Combat Technique (equivalent to our Soresu) wasn't even really affected by the "nerf," which was actually a fix that made some hybrid specs BETTER.

 

And yes 500k is easy to break in Shii-Cho focus, but I prefer to run my Soresu blend so that I can guard healers.

Edited by -Sithis-
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Awesome, I'll switch it up. What level should I switch to tank spec?

 

 

 

Also, my main is a lvl 50 focus guardian and I'll agree that the tank tree doesn't have enough damage especially when compared to energy consumption / gain.

 

shadows specced tank have: aoe force slow that does damage on low CD, force breach aoe lowers acc automatically no points needed,force pull, procced high damage tele throws procced high damage projects, an ability that makes all force/tech attacks useless, stealth out of combat, stealth in general, better energy system.

 

Guardians specced tank get: Full armor reduction move that does decent dmg but hardly any to heavy armor opponents, some SPECCED cc whereas shadows already have stun, lift and cloak mezz; aoe mezz(shared w/ knights), aoe snare, guardian leap, force leap, and some terrible talents that don't really effect pvp too much.

 

Guardians are a different beast than shadow, a bit tougher to play well, but honestly there is something lacking in that left tree.

 

Both 31/0/10 and 27/0/14 are ideal Shadow specs at lvl 50, in DPS gear.

 

Supposedly these pictures are post nerf.

 

All pics and numbers are post-nerfs. And again, there was no shadow "nerf."

Edited by -Sithis-
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The funny thing is that Assassins and Powertechs, on their tankiest specs, far out damage Guardians, even on their most DPSy spec.

 

And if a fight ever goes wrong for an Assassin? Every two minutes they can stealth out of the fight and zoom away. Their Force Speed of course, is immune to our slow.

Edited by clearsighted
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Guardians are the better 'protection' class, but the damage disparity compared to the other two tank classes is utterly absurd. And we 'wonder' why the combat log hasn't been released yet. It's because gross class imbalance like this.

 

Also, it's really, really dumb that Shadow tanks get a PULL along with already having sprint, stealth, aoe knockback x3-4 the DPS. There is no good reason why a Guardian tank shouldn't be able to talent spec a pull. None whatsoever.

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Guardians are the better 'protection' class, but the damage disparity compared to the other two tank classes is utterly absurd. And we 'wonder' why the combat log hasn't been released yet. It's because gross class imbalance like this.

 

Also, it's really, really dumb that Shadow tanks get a PULL along with already having sprint, stealth, aoe knockback x3-4 the DPS. There is no good reason why a Guardian tank shouldn't be able to talent spec a pull. None whatsoever.

 

Actually guardians aren't even better at "protection" than vanguards in pvp. Our defense tree gives us alot of +x% defense which is useless in pvp because many attacks avoid dodge/parry. Vanguards have many talents that give them a flat +x% damage reduction, which affects ALL attacks.

 

Also, think of this scenario. You are guarding your healer, the healer is getting tracer missile spammed by a merc 30 yards away. As a guardian, you can either force leap onto the merc and have your healer lose guard, or stay next to your healer guarding him and taunt the merc while you twiddling your thumbs doing nothing... both pretty bad options.

 

A vanguard however, can simply pull the merc and dps down the merc WHILE guarding his healer.

 

Vanguards are simply superior pvp tanks all together. (that's why I stick with focus spec... it's actually a competitive spec when compared to other advanced classes)

Edited by AndantePhist
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Guardians are the better 'protection' class, but the damage disparity compared to the other two tank classes is utterly absurd. And we 'wonder' why the combat log hasn't been released yet. It's because gross class imbalance like this.

 

Also, it's really, really dumb that Shadow tanks get a PULL along with already having sprint, stealth, aoe knockback x3-4 the DPS. There is no good reason why a Guardian tank shouldn't be able to talent spec a pull. None whatsoever.

 

Right now, Vanguards and Shadows are so easy because they have a lot of freedom to do frontloaded damage (a bunch of wounded Sith? Send them to the moon). (Defense) Guardian rotations are very inflexible, because our only meaningful skills have cooldowns, and our resource system needs a buildup (can be bypassed, but there *are* unpleasant moments when you're caught with your Focus-pants down).

 

On my Shadow and PT, I share OP's experience. However, I don't feel that I'm contributing less to the team as a Guardian. I excel at being the pain in the lower back. Literally pulling apart an enemy team by pushing tanks away from guarded healers, locking people down, bouncing around the battlefield, being an annoying, but difficult target, taking massive focusfire under cooldowns, etc, etc.

Edited by Helig
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Actually guardians aren't even better at "protection" than vanguards in pvp. Our defense tree gives us alot of +x% defense which is useless in pvp because many attacks avoid dodge/parry. Vanguards have many talents that give them a flat +x% damage reduction, which affects ALL attacks.

 

No, hybrid def/vig Guardians are a MUCH superior protection class.

 

Also, think of this scenario. You are guarding your healer, the healer is getting tracer missile spammed by a merc 30 yards away. As a guardian, you can either force leap onto the merc and have your healer lose guard, or stay next to your healer guarding him and taunt the merc while you twiddling your thumbs doing nothing... both pretty bad options.

 

You sound like a terrible Guardian to be honest. Force leap tracer spammer, which interrupts, then force push or taunt and Guardian leap back to your healer and hit aoe taunt and/or Awe if he's being focused.

 

A vanguard however, can simply pull the merc and dps down the merc WHILE guarding his healer.

 

Vanguards are simply superior pvp tanks all together. (that's why I stick with focus spec... it's actually a competitive spec when compared to other advanced classes)

 

Haha, no they are not better pvp tanks, at least not at keeping people alive and staying alive. Damage wise, they blow hybrid/def Guardians out of the water though. But anybody calling Vanguards better pvp tanks doesn't how to play a Guardian properly. So I'm not really surprised by your post, considering you willfully choose the Guardian 'derp' aka focus spec.

Edited by TheLakers
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You sound like a terrible Guardian to be honest. Force leap tracer spammer, which interrupts, then force push or taunt and Guardian leap back to your healer and hit aoe taunt and/or Awe if he's being focused.

 

 

Ok that scenario is flawed, because its 1vs2, a merc vs healer+tank, obviously the healer+tank will have an upper hand on the merc.

 

Lets say 2 mercs (both spread out) are on your healer? what are you going to do? Force leap on one merc and cc him for like 2 seconds? Lol your follow up suggestion makes no sense... guardian leap back to your healer and hit aoe taunt/awe? You do know aoe taunt/awe has a really short range right?

 

A vanguard+healer vs 2 tracer spaming mercs... the vanguard can pull 1 merc and lock him down with vanguard's 6 second CD interrupt. While doing that, he can range stun the second merc followed by a taunt WHILE the whole time keep his healer guarded since he never has to move out of range.

 

 

Haha, no they are not better pvp tanks, at least not at keeping people alive and staying alive. Damage wise, they blow hybrid/def Guardians out of the water though. But anybody calling Vanguards better pvp tanks doesn't how to play a Guardian properly. So I'm not really surprised by your post, considering you willfully choose the Guardian 'derp' aka focus spec.

 

Obviously you've never played with good vanguards or never played a vanguard class to know what they are capable off.

 

Also just because you dont have the skill to pull off focus does not make it a "derp" spec. Live with the fact you will be bad with guardians and stick with easier classes. I have tried all specs of guardian including hybrids, and imo focus is the most effective as long as you don't treat it as a derp spec. Most bad focus guardians spend way too much effort setting up force sweep... it should be second nature, that way a focus guardian can do a million other things WHILE setting up force sweeps (including switching to soresu for clutch guarding, etc).

Edited by AndantePhist
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Agree with TheLakers really, there are any number of different combinations revolving around Guardian Leap that make us excel at PVP tanking. We're second to none.

 

Guardian leap makes us excel in Huttball... I'll give him that, but its not one ability that makes a class excel in a role, its the whole package, and IMO vanguards are better as a whole package when it comes to pvp tanking.

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Guardian leap makes us excel in Huttball... I'll give him that, but its not one ability that makes a class excel in a role, its the whole package, and IMO vanguards are better as a whole package when it comes to pvp tanking.

 

From a PvE standpoint, I trust Vanguard Tanks a lot more than a Guardian Tank, the issue with Guardians and tanking carries over in PvE as well.

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A full tank vanguard can easily break 500k damage in voidstar regularly while having insane survivability..

 

When and where did you actually see a full Shield Vanguard in a warzone, or in fact any PvP scenario ?

 

I didn't think they existed.

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Guardian leap makes us excel in Huttball... I'll give him that, but its not one ability that makes a class excel in a role, its the whole package, and IMO vanguards are better as a whole package when it comes to pvp tanking.

 

I'm sorry dude, but I just don't buy it. I've had a Bounty Hunter in beta, a 50 Vanguard and a 50 Guardian now and I can assure you that without a doubt the Guardian excels at tanking damage away from your group and that revolves around Guardian Leap and the focus friendly target keybind.

 

Guardian Leap, Guard, Challenging Call, Dust Storm, that's basically a reduction of pretty much all incoming damage, Awe, Freezing Force, Push, are all extensions of that.

 

Guardian Leap with focus target puts you where they are without needing to look, and our PVP tanking revolves around that and it's very short cool down.

Edited by CapuchinSeven
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I'm sorry dude, but I just don't buy it. I've had a Bounty Hunter in beta, a 50 Vanguard and a 50 Guardian now and I can assure you that without a doubt the Guardian excels at tanking damage away from your group and that revolves around Guardian Leap and the focus friendly target keybind.

 

I don't know what game you're playing, but it's obviously not SWTOR. Guardian Leap takes 45 seconds to cool down, and can actually take you away from your target.

 

Guardian Leap, Guard, Challenging Call, Dust Storm, that's basically a reduction of pretty much all incoming damage, Awe, Freezing Force, Push, are all extensions of that.

 

Freezing Force only works against some critters. Plus other tank classes also have a movement hampering skill.

 

Awe? Tell me you're joking, Awe is laughable, 6 seconds that knocks some enemies out of commission unless they take any damage, which tends to be most of the time...

 

Guard? Every tank class has Guard, this isn't exactly a Guardian exclusive skill.

 

Dust Storm only works if the critter's accuracy is low enough that this is remotely effective. It's ability to be effective is actually unknown, it wasn't all that effective in beta, I'm not sure it's all that effective now. Your statement that it reduces all incoming damage isn't true, that's not what the game text for dust storm says, anyone whom looks at the skill tree knows that.

 

Dust storm reduces accuracy of an enemy temporarily, which may reduce damage you take, "may" does not mean it will reduce damage.

 

Force Push only resets force leap which isn't always helpful. Sages and consulars have a better skill that can affect multiple critters at the same time.

 

Challenging Call is an aoe taunt, and I think the other tank classes have similar taunts.

 

Guardian Leap with focus target puts you where they are without needing to look, and our PVP tanking revolves around that and it's very short cool down.

 

45 seconds is not a short cool down, plus you only head to where you can get at an enemy with Guardian leap if you are fighting a melee enemy that has gone after an ally. Otherwise you actually can be messing up your attacks (assuming force leap and force push are both still on cooldown).

Edited by GarfieldJL
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