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Theoretical Class Balancing

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Theoretical Class Balancing

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
03.31.2012 , 10:03 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
1) You apparently don't understand what the coefficient is, please re-read what I wrote. The coefficient does exactly what your multiplier does (and more).
I read what you said, and that system is faulty. It should be (base damage + bonus damage) * coefficient to keep values constant.


Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
3) You need to get a little higher level before making these posts...as they don't make any sense. For example, you say that there should be an ability with a long cooldown to allow you to re-enter stealth in combat. That ability exists, you gain it in the mid 20s for both assassin & operative. (hmm...did you edit that comment out of your posts because you realized it was dumb?)
I never said I wanted a long cooldown skill to enter stealth in combat I wanted a short cooldown skill that would put you in stealth for a limited time in combat. I never said that assassins and operatives should get a long term one to have them leave stealth permanently because they already do in the form of cloaking screen and force cloak.


Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
Another example: When you reach lvl 50, you will find out that there is no "pvp buff" and that your skills will do the same in a warzone as they do anywhere else (assuming you have zero expertise). Arguing about balance in a warzone pre-50 is silly, pvp pre-lvl cap is never balanced in any MMO...and most games fail at balance even at level cap as well.
I realize that there is no pvp buff at level 50, I was simply using the buff that you receive from pvp as a way to clearly demonstrate the scaling in skills. Some skills clearly benefit more from gear than others THAT was the point that I was trying to make.

Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
Yet another example: You are talking about the damage of shock. Were you unaware of the skill Assassin's training? It is a passive skill with a few different ranks, each rank increases the damage of shock by 25%. You get the first rank at lvl 10, the second rank I think in the high teens, the third in the mid 20s, and idk about the rest as my shadow character is still in her 20s, and torhead doesn't list all of the skills ranks :/

In other words, Shock becomes more and more a major part of your damage the higher lvl you get. And that was something the dev's designed into the game. It is not broken.
Actually assassins training provides only the initial 25% damage buff to shock, there's literally no damage difference in shock between assassins training rank 1-4. In fact shock isn't even getting a full benefit from assassins training(I believe it's like 18-19%?) or it's falling somewhere into the equation that I'm not aware of.

Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
4) Lastly...why is everything in your posts in spoiler tags? that's just annoying. Spoiler tags are for, spoilers. If you don't know what a spoiler is: Your ideas on the usefulness of stealth is not a spoiler it is an opinion, on the other hand the plot of the Sith Warrior class story is a spoiler.
Because if they aren't in spoilers then wall of text syndrome occurs. People don't like scrolling all that much. Although if it bothers you that much I'll take them out and see what I can do about formatting.

Tuburculosis's Avatar


Tuburculosis
03.31.2012 , 11:56 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
Balance should be something like:


heals>=range dps>=tanks>=melee dps>=heals


But right now its:

heals>range dps>tanks=melee dps>agents
how true, how true. love how every class you fight has so many buffs, procs, shields but agents have hardly anything at all. seems so many complained about operatives that they had to just turn the entire class to pure ****, thank god I wasted time rolling a main sniper up to 50 to realise that class imbalance is just rediculous.

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
04.01.2012 , 02:21 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Toxification View Post
I read what you said, and that system is faulty. It should be (base damage + bonus damage) * coefficient to keep values constant.
umm...no.

(base damage + bonus damage)* coefficient??? That simplifies to: base damage*coefficient + bonus damage*coefficient...which is just silly, instead they modify the base damage of the skill and just have base damage + bonus damage*coefficient. The are the EXACT same system.

Quote: Originally Posted by Toxification View Post
I never said I wanted a long cooldown skill to enter stealth in combat I wanted a short cooldown skill that would put you in stealth for a limited time in combat. I never said that assassins and operatives should get a long term one to have them leave stealth permanently because they already do in the form of cloaking screen and force cloak.
So you want assassins & operatives to have force camouflage? mara/sent's already have that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Toxification View Post
I realize that there is no pvp buff at level 50, I was simply using the buff that you receive from pvp as a way to clearly demonstrate the scaling in skills. Some skills clearly benefit more from gear than others THAT was the point that I was trying to make.
So what? Yes, some abilities scale better with gear than others...those are the abilities that end up having the highest DPCT & DPR (damage per cast time & damage per resource). That's how you create a priority list & play your class correctly.

If every ability scaled exactly the same, then you could just find the best DPCT one and spam it.

If they switched to your model, and used just stats*multiplier for ability damage, skills would still scale differently.

Regardless of what you want, this is not your game. It is bioware's game, and they decided to use the same system for calculating damage as virtually every RPG since DnD back in the 70s. (which is base damage roll + modifiers). If you think your system is better, then go make your own game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Toxification View Post
Actually assassins training provides only the initial 25% damage buff to shock, there's literally no damage difference in shock between assassins training rank 1-4. In fact shock isn't even getting a full benefit from assassins training(I believe it's like 18-19%?) or it's falling somewhere into the equation that I'm not aware of.
You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that my shadow's project damage went up by a good 50 points when I learned rank 2. But I haven't done any theorycrafting on that toon yet, so I could be mistaken.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
04.01.2012 , 09:34 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
So you want assassins & operatives to have force camouflage? mara/sent's already have that.
I know what marauders and sentinels have the skill and I know what it does. I fail to see your point however.


Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
So what? Yes, some abilities scale better with gear than others...those are the abilities that end up having the highest DPCT & DPR (damage per cast time & damage per resource). That's how you create a priority list & play your class correctly.

If every ability scaled exactly the same, then you could just find the best DPCT one and spam it.

If they switched to your model, and used just stats*multiplier for ability damage, skills would still scale differently.
You're not understanding gaahhh(beats head on desk). I realize how the current system works I'm simply stating that there are some slight flaws with the current system that work against balance that could easily be tweaked to simply make the game far easier to balance without sacrificing anything other than a little time and effort to make the change. In the end they'd save themselves alot of work and pain and suffering. Here's an example of an issue with the current system

Massacre - Tier 7 skill of the central marauder tree Carnage deals around 214-235 on my level 18 marauder(from the preview). 3 rage cost. Vicious slash deals around 180-205 damage costs 3 rage. As of level 50 however they look more like this. Carnage deals 800-850 damage and Vicious Slash deals 950-1000 damage, the rage costs have not changed. This is a major problem for the playerbase because what looks to be an awesome skill and an upgrade, is actually a downgrade because of Carnage not scaling properly. The ratio has gone from carnage doing 17% MORE damage to carnage doing 15% LESS damage. That's the issue with scaling and I want to make sure that all skills scale at an equal ratio.


Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that my shadow's project damage went up by a good 50 points when I learned rank 2. But I haven't done any theorycrafting on that toon yet, so I could be mistaken.
100% sure, I went on my shadow 2 hours ago and got shadows training from rank 2-4 and project's damage didn't result in an increase. It was doing an average of 820 non-crit damage on level 4 mobs before shadows training and 820 average after shadows training.

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
04.02.2012 , 04:49 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Toxification View Post
I know what marauders and sentinels have the skill and I know what it does. I fail to see your point however.
My point is that a class already has a short duration in combat stealth move...in general I like classes to be different, and am against any sort of class homogenization.

Quote: Originally Posted by Toxification View Post
You're not understanding gaahhh(beats head on desk). I realize how the current system works I'm simply stating that there are some slight flaws with the current system that work against balance that could easily be tweaked to simply make the game far easier to balance without sacrificing anything other than a little time and effort to make the change. In the end they'd save themselves alot of work and pain and suffering. Here's an example of an issue with the current system

Massacre - Tier 7 skill of the central marauder tree Carnage deals around 214-235 on my level 18 marauder(from the preview). 3 rage cost. Vicious slash deals around 180-205 damage costs 3 rage. As of level 50 however they look more like this. Carnage deals 800-850 damage and Vicious Slash deals 950-1000 damage, the rage costs have not changed. This is a major problem for the playerbase because what looks to be an awesome skill and an upgrade, is actually a downgrade because of Carnage not scaling properly. The ratio has gone from carnage doing 17% MORE damage to carnage doing 15% LESS damage. That's the issue with scaling and I want to make sure that all skills scale at an equal ratio.
I see that YOU think it is a problem, but you have not explained why I should see it as a problem.

I am aware that different skills scale differently, and that your biggest attack at lvl 20 might end up being your worst attack at lvl 40. I don't see why this is a problem. Though your example is pretty bad...you are forgetting that massacre increases the chance for Ataru form to proc by 30%. Therefore even if Massacre did like zero damage, it would still be worth it for the extra attack/boosted damage on next attack/force scream crit chance.

Your suggestion is for bioware to completely redo how all abilities calculate how much damage/healing they do, as such the burden of proof is on you. Before you can expect bioware to actually do anything, you need to provide reasons for why the current system is flawed and why your system is better. Here, I'll help you out, if I can. Answer these questions:

-You say that having different abilities scale differently is terrible. Why is it terrible, don't just provide an example of two abilities scaling differently. Provide a reason as to why it is bad that different abilities scale differently. After reading all of your posts in this thread, I completely understand that you think it is terrible, and you have provided a few different examples of different scaling as well...how about a reason?

-Some abilities are AoE, some are single target...is that terrible as well? Should all abilities behave exactly the same way? If it is not terrible that some abilities are AoE, why is that different than scaling differently?

-To put it another way, why should all abilities scale the same? What benefit does that give the game, saying "it makes it easier to balance" is not an answer, nor is "it makes the ratio's the same". Why is it important for the ratio's to stay the same, and how does having skills scale the same make it easier to balance?

If this helps, pretend that you are talking to someone who thinks that the current system has no flaws & is wonderful. What arguments would you use to convince them that they are wrong...simply pointing out examples of different scaling isn't going to convince them, unless you can explain why that is a bad thing.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
04.02.2012 , 02:19 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
My point is that a class already has a short duration in combat stealth move...in general I like classes to be different, and am against any sort of class homogenization.
True, but I'd say that it is quite instrumental to the assassin and operative classes to have an active combat given that so many of their skills and abilities depend on it.

Dark Embrace- While this works great in PvP and very short PvE battles it is completely worthless in long scale boss fights and PvP matches where you don't leave combat.
Spike- Essentially having an in-combat stealth would actually make the skill useful. It's a handy interrupt among other things but again, on a long term scale it's useless.

Hidden Strike(Operative)- Again another example of a skill which despite being very powerful and useful in PvP it is useless in long boss fights. That's the reason they can't balance operatives damage, because so much depends on this skill. Acid Blade included.

Now I agree with you in that all classes should have a different feel to them, however there are going to be skills which heavily overlap. In the event that assassins and operatives got a skill such as this, I think I'd like to see the marauder/sentinels cloak reworked. Possibly increase its duration by 2 seconds(to 6 seconds) and have it increase your movement speed by 50%.




Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
-You say that having different abilities scale differently is terrible. Why is it terrible, don't just provide an example of two abilities scaling differently. Provide a reason as to why it is bad that different abilities scale differently. After reading all of your posts in this thread, I completely understand that you think it is terrible, and you have provided a few different examples of different scaling as well...how about a reason?
Alright I'll use ravage as it might be the most blatant example that I've found.
At level 15(ish) on my sentinel the masters strike(ravage) deals about 4.5 times the damage of strike which builds 2 focus. It also deals around 2.5 times the damage of slash. As of level 15 master strike is a very useful skill(and it should be considering its 30 second cooldown). However due to its scaling once the marauder reaches level 40 master strike only does around 3.5-4 times the damage of strike and 2.2-2.5 times the damage of slash. It is now almost worthwhile to cast half the skill(I believe that like 65% of the damage is done in the first second and a half) and then cast the other two skills. Thereby your rotation has changed due to scaling which is terrible. If at the beginning master strike does 1000 times the damage of strike then it should stay at 1000 times the damage of strike throughout the entire game regardless of what gear you have on. The same should apply to all skills force, melee tech all of them. The current system is perfectly fine assuming everyone is the same level with the same gear, which they clearly are not, this system is basically foolproof unless the player is TRYING to gear themselves in a way that screws them over.

Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
-Some abilities are AoE, some are single target...is that terrible as well? Should all abilities behave exactly the same way? If it is not terrible that some abilities are AoE, why is that different than scaling differently?
This is completely different from how abilties scale, no comment.

Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
-To put it another way, why should all abilities scale the same? What benefit does that give the game, saying "it makes it easier to balance" is not an answer, nor is "it makes the ratio's the same". Why is it important for the ratio's to stay the same, and how does having skills scale the same make it easier to balance?
It makes it easier to balance because regardless of what gear you put in the game the skills will always maintain their ratios, no single skill will get more benefit than another, thereby offsetting the balance.

My goal with the system I propose is to have a game where, no skill benefits more from gear, on a percent of your total damage that all skills put out will remain the same regardless of what gear you are wearing, Thereby keeping the value of talents in trees equivalent and keeping the game balanced over long periods of time,