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Ranged dps. Sorc vs merc vs sniper

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Ranged dps. Sorc vs merc vs sniper

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.05.2012 , 05:49 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Cegenaus View Post
are we talking about pvp or pve because my merc in full champ gear does not crit for 4k+ against other players unless they are fresh 50s and i pop adrenals+stims+relics. in pve HSM has crit for 5k
idk if you know, but champ gear isn't BiS....there's an entire other tier of higher gear for pvp, and I could be wrong but I'm vaguely certain that both columi & rakata put out more damage than champion in pve.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.

Cegenaus's Avatar


Cegenaus
03.05.2012 , 01:51 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
idk if you know, but champ gear isn't BiS....there's an entire other tier of higher gear for pvp, and I could be wrong but I'm vaguely certain that both columi & rakata put out more damage than champion in pve.
never heard the term BiS and ive never tested rakata
Cegenaus/Xyrin/Ixor/Domz
Merc/Sorc/Mara/Jugg

Vortex Reborn/Das Ubel- Terentatek

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.05.2012 , 03:23 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Cegenaus View Post
never heard the term BiS and ive never tested rakata
BiS = Best in Slot

As in the best gear possible for each equipment slot.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.

sithterror's Avatar


sithterror
03.05.2012 , 07:37 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Xionsmith View Post
Know how many abilities Sorcery has that can crit for 6k+? None.
Know how many abilities Sorcery has that can crit for 5k+? None.
Know how many abilities Sorcery has that can crit for 4k+? None.
hmmm, Recklessness + Dark Infusion = 5.2k crit for me

oh DPS, right, right.

lets see this comparison to others:
**All Averages**
Force Lightning (all 3 ticks) = 2k+
Lightning Strike = 2.3k
Chain Lightning = 2.2k
Death Field = 2.6k
Crushing Darkness (W/Deathmark) = 2k+
Shock = 1.6k
Affliction = to hard to count numbers

Not bragging but this does support no 'bursty' dps and very good sustained during and after movement and is reliable on procs for wrath and L-Barrage.
How does the you others fare in similar...of course best-guestimates since combat logs arent out yet?

JaddynnStarr's Avatar


JaddynnStarr
03.06.2012 , 01:46 PM | #45
well for the most part, ^^ is correct, thats about my avrg damage with my current hybrid build... Somethibng else to factor in is... a srocere pretty much has to stay standing still to put out that kinda damage... which means any melee worth his salt is closin that gap fast... Also factor in that your pretty much the squishiest prof out there and u get targeted fast for the easy kill medal. If im not targeted in a WZ non stop, i can shell out 400k dmg fairly well... but if everyone targets me due to me squishyness, i usually end up in the 150k range... which lately is about half my matches it seems...

maybe its my gear or my lack of knowledge... but i know im rollin with full champ gear and columni gear, so i should be at least approaching my full potential. In pvp i tend to use affliction > lightning till proc, crush dark > force lightining till proc > chain lightning, then throw a CC/stun in when i see a blue bar to interupt... Maybe i dont crit enuff? im runnin about 29% crit 74% multiplier.... with a rakata relic for crit/surge... Any pointers for me? i hate dying after 4 hits from just about anything attackin me....16.5k health...

Hachimando's Avatar


Hachimando
03.07.2012 , 05:15 PM | #46
In full rakata gear comparatively in our raids (everyone is at least 4/5 Rakata w/Rakata main hands), and personally I have a full rakata sorc and full columi merc. The comparison is looking at how long it takes us to kill our marauders during the duel. Also for pretty much every single boss fight, either my sorc or our merc will randomly pull threat off our tanks mid fight, forcing them to taunt constantly. If your dps isn't constantly pulling threat off bosses, they are no where near pulling what they could be. Tanking is in a sad state and none of the 3 tank classes put up anywhere near enough base threat from using anything other than taunts to hold agro. Of course if ANY of our dps threat dumps actually worked (other than extricate?) that would be a different story but since they're all currently bugged and only drop 0.25% threat instead of 25%, ya well good thing taunt works.

As far as detailing who's pulling higher dps, our Bonethrasher strat puts our 3 ranged dps at: W, S, E compass direcitons and the three ranged go crazy on him bouncing him between us. My Sorc holds Bonethrasher more often than our Merc does and our Sniper only get's threat if the two of us get hit with a knockback swipe (which causes a full threat dump). If you know the fight, there is no tank on Bonethrasher so it's a pure dps check that's holding threat. Second reference fight is J&S. When all ranged is on J and S jets up and carbonizer probes the tank on J he automatically jumps who ever is 2nd on threat, i.e. the highest DPS. Again duplicating the data on Bonethrasher, he jumps my sorc just about every time.

0/13/28 sorc: highest dps, but you can only sustain full dps rotation for about 2 mins. Then you have to lower dps and start consuming to generate enough force. If you can burst it down in 2mins, or have pauses where you can consume and get healed back up, this is the spec to run. In my eyes, for a 5min boss fight this spec is useless for more than 1/2 the fight.

6/31/4 merc: second highest dps and stronger initial burst than a sorc (full rotation to 100 heat, then vent it off) and of course never runs out of resource if paced properly. Unless of course you run 16man with multiple mercs, then LOL merc all the way. 4 mercs stacking HS, I'm scoring 11k HSM crits (all 4 of us are critting that hard with HSM); stacking HS needs a nerf BADLY.

0/17/24 sorc: lower dps than the above merc and still above whatever our sniper can do; upside is you never run out of force - ever. I'm running this currently for NMM runs because quite frankly once the 0/13/28 goes dry it's useless and you can't afford to force your healers to top you back up all the time. I might try dropping to 50% effusion to see what that longevity plays like. Plus with unlimited power, you can assist with healing and bubbling other people without worrying about running low on force.

Someone else will have to comment on which sniper build and how they compare. So far I'm not impressed with our rakata level snipers. (and mine's only lv20...)

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.12.2012 , 02:37 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Hachimando View Post
In full rakata gear comparatively in our raids (everyone is at least 4/5 Rakata w/Rakata main hands), and personally I have a full rakata sorc and full columi merc. The comparison is looking at how long it takes us to kill our marauders during the duel. Also for pretty much every single boss fight, either my sorc or our merc will randomly pull threat off our tanks mid fight, forcing them to taunt constantly. If your dps isn't constantly pulling threat off bosses, they are no where near pulling what they could be. Tanking is in a sad state and none of the 3 tank classes put up anywhere near enough base threat from using anything other than taunts to hold agro. Of course if ANY of our dps threat dumps actually worked (other than extricate?) that would be a different story but since they're all currently bugged and only drop 0.25% threat instead of 25%, ya well good thing taunt works.

As far as detailing who's pulling higher dps, our Bonethrasher strat puts our 3 ranged dps at: W, S, E compass direcitons and the three ranged go crazy on him bouncing him between us. My Sorc holds Bonethrasher more often than our Merc does and our Sniper only get's threat if the two of us get hit with a knockback swipe (which causes a full threat dump). If you know the fight, there is no tank on Bonethrasher so it's a pure dps check that's holding threat. Second reference fight is J&S. When all ranged is on J and S jets up and carbonizer probes the tank on J he automatically jumps who ever is 2nd on threat, i.e. the highest DPS. Again duplicating the data on Bonethrasher, he jumps my sorc just about every time.

0/13/28 sorc: highest dps, but you can only sustain full dps rotation for about 2 mins. Then you have to lower dps and start consuming to generate enough force. If you can burst it down in 2mins, or have pauses where you can consume and get healed back up, this is the spec to run. In my eyes, for a 5min boss fight this spec is useless for more than 1/2 the fight.

6/31/4 merc: second highest dps and stronger initial burst than a sorc (full rotation to 100 heat, then vent it off) and of course never runs out of resource if paced properly. Unless of course you run 16man with multiple mercs, then LOL merc all the way. 4 mercs stacking HS, I'm scoring 11k HSM crits (all 4 of us are critting that hard with HSM); stacking HS needs a nerf BADLY.

0/17/24 sorc: lower dps than the above merc and still above whatever our sniper can do; upside is you never run out of force - ever. I'm running this currently for NMM runs because quite frankly once the 0/13/28 goes dry it's useless and you can't afford to force your healers to top you back up all the time. I might try dropping to 50% effusion to see what that longevity plays like. Plus with unlimited power, you can assist with healing and bubbling other people without worrying about running low on force.

Someone else will have to comment on which sniper build and how they compare. So far I'm not impressed with our rakata level snipers. (and mine's only lv20...)
I refer you to: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=341126

Keypoints:
-Threat dumps do work. They reduce threat by 25%...which as a decimal is 0.25 which is where people got the idea that they reduced threat by 0.25% (that and extricate does have 25.0 in the same place in the game files, so it apparently reduces threat by 2500%).

-There's no way a competent tank should ever lose threat...if your tank is losing threat after 30 seconds into a fight, give him the URL to that thread and tell him to read the part on taunt. 3 min into a fight, and taunt by itself (as in, no abilities other than taunt every 15 seconds) and your tank is doing more than THREE TIMES the threat per second of the highest DPS in the raid.

On other notes: J&S, we run two tanks, I'm on sorno as I have a faster interrupt cd...and Jorg always jumps to me, not the highest DPS (the first time he goes to the highest DPS, every time after that he just jumps to me).

according to sims, full lightning & full madness both out do 17/24 btw
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.

Daellia's Avatar


Daellia
03.12.2012 , 06:44 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
-There's no way a competent tank should ever lose threat...if your tank is losing threat after 30 seconds into a fight, give him the URL to that thread and tell him to read the part on taunt. 3 min into a fight, and taunt by itself (as in, no abilities other than taunt every 15 seconds) and your tank is doing more than THREE TIMES the threat per second of the highest DPS in the raid.
Well, to be fair, most operation fights have threat drops or threat reductions that inhibit this effect a great deal.

Quote:
0/13/28 sorc: highest dps, but you can only sustain full dps rotation for about 2 mins. Then you have to lower dps and start consuming to generate enough force. If you can burst it down in 2mins, or have pauses where you can consume and get healed back up, this is the spec to run. In my eyes, for a 5min boss fight this spec is useless for more than 1/2 the fight.

0/17/24 sorc: lower dps than the above merc and still above whatever our sniper can do; upside is you never run out of force - ever. I'm running this currently for NMM runs because quite frankly once the 0/13/28 goes dry it's useless and you can't afford to force your healers to top you back up all the time. I might try dropping to 50% effusion to see what that longevity plays like. Plus with unlimited power, you can assist with healing and bubbling other people without worrying about running low on force.
You badly misunderstand 13/28. You're not supposed to spam CL every time Wrath is active and run yourself out of force in ~2 minutes, then be "useless" for the rest of the fight. Meter your CL usage. Dropping CL from the rotation entirely is only about a 2% dps loss (and that spec is about 4% above the nearest competitors). Use CL carefully and the spec never runs out of Force, even without using Consumption. Even on a 20 minute fight, 13/28 (if played properly, meaning not spamming CL every time it can be used) is still the highest dps spec.

On the note of 17/24, you're better off with 7/18/16. Exactly same playstyle, 10% more AoE dps, ~1.5% more single-target dps. As referenced above, 31-Lightning and 31-Madness are also options, if you don't want to or can't learn to control your CL spam from 13/28. 31-Lightning, 31-Madness, and 7/18/16 are all relatively close to each other in dps (within a 1.5% band). I personally run 7/18/16, because my guild isn't having issues with enrage timers, and the additional AoE speeds up soloing, flashpoints, and raid trash (not to mention coming in handy on certain fights like Karagga, Gharj, and Jarg/Sorno). 17/24 is just a gimped version of 7/18/16.
Even Angels must kill from time to time... ~Kaedis

Playingforfun's Avatar


Playingforfun
03.12.2012 , 10:28 AM | #49
In my guild who rips agro/has second agro is decided for the most part by who doesn't receive guard. We have had all 3 ranged classes rip agro at the strangest times, most noticeably during Karagga for obvious reasons and again, all 3 classes have done it. Also note I write this from a purely 16 man perspective.

As for Specs, our best Sorc runs a 0/25/16 spec. As I understand it frequent use of Chain Lightning with the 30% damage procs and the 3% global bonus beats Deathmark quite handily.

Now since the OP asked for a comparison between the 3 classes here is what I have experienced having played both Sorc and Sniper in a raid environment and speaking a great deal with DPS Mercs.

Sorc: Best sustained AoE, Single target DPS beats most classes easily. Comes with a powerful built in heal, Static Barrier and can cleanse Mental and Force effects (rare/non-existent in current content). Can interrupt. Force Speed makes dodging mechanics easier.

Overall brings the most frequently and generally useful utility to the table. Can spam a strong heal in times of need. Static Barrier is very useful. Interrupts are critical. Powerful sustained AoE helps in a few encounters.

Sniper: Competes for best single target DPS. Has a powerful but high cooldown AoE. Most specs come with built in survival mechanics to reduce damage taken as well as some defensive cooldowns. Can spec into a powerful accuracy debuff (Flash Powder 20% 8 sec) to serve as an additional defensive cooldown for the tank. Ballistic Shield 20% raidwide damage prevention is useful in many situations. Has an armor debuff in Shatter Shot which does stack with other armor debuffs. Can interrupt.

Overall a survivable if well played high DPS class with frequently useful (interrupt) and situational but powerful (Shield and Flash Powder) utility. Also increases overall raid DPS by bringing an Armor Debuff, the effective DPS of a Sniper exceeds their own personal DPS.

Merc: Competes for best single target DPS. Heavy armor and powerful defensive cooldowns provide excellent survivability. Healing capable though not as effective unspecced as Sorc. Can cleanse Tech and Physical effects which are the two most common debuff/dot types in current content. As Arsenal Spec as an armor debuff that stacks with other armor debuffs.

Overall highest survivability of the 3 ranged DPS classes. Armor debuff is overall raid DPS increase thus effective DPS is greater than personal DPS. Heal and Cleanse are useful at the right times. The lack of Interrupt is a tremendous downside, many fights in current content require interrupt.
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Daellia's Avatar


Daellia
03.12.2012 , 10:47 AM | #50
Quote:
As for Specs, our best Sorc runs a 0/25/16 spec. As I understand it frequent use of Chain Lightning with the 30% damage procs and the 3% global bonus beats Deathmark quite handily.
Your Sorc needs to do some more research. 25/16 sims at either ~10% or ~15% lower than 13/28, depending on whether you use FL or LS (respectively) as your filler. 7/18/16 has nearly the same playstyle as 25/16 (and shares the infinite force), and deals 5-10% more single target damage and 3-5% more AoE damage. 25/16 is generally regarded as the spec that indicates the user doesn't actually research their class.
Even Angels must kill from time to time... ~Kaedis