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So when do we get the Appearance Tab?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
So when do we get the Appearance Tab?

Jinnlynx's Avatar


Jinnlynx
12.28.2011 , 09:29 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Ruskyandrei View Post
A lot of people throw the "I'm not proposing removing anything, you don't have to use it if you don't want to" argument around.

The problem with that reasoning is that this is not a single player game and any change you add will affect all players regardless of whether they are interested in the new feature or not.

Personally I do not want anything like the WoW/DCUO appearance tab functionality. The current crafting implementation achieves the same results but also has a feeling of acomplishment to it.
Amen. it's not even a month in use people stop looking for easy cheesy hand me's and do a little work for what you want the current system is good and giving the game time to get into full swing it'll only get better. Wow had 7 years to get to where it was those of us that remember the original launch it had more than a few flaws. Give it time.

Ohoni's Avatar


Ohoni
12.28.2011 , 09:57 AM | #72
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The game just started... Not all Patterns have been found... Yup that's the down side of starting a game at launch...

From my experience Oranges are mostly patterns found through "slicing" missions that Slicers will get from time to time...
Oranges are still inferior to an appearance management system, since they are much more hassle to come across and much more hassle to keep updated, they devalue the armor crafting professions, and they devalue rewarded and looted gear, which makes the "reward" factor of the game much less satisfying. Basically they are just a massive "fun" drain for absolutely no benefit.

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1 - The systems is NEW ... Even the devs themselves says it still has to be worked on... They are working to make it better...
Yes, and we've been making suggestions on how they can make it better.

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2 - As an other one said earlier... The Orange are made that you have to work to be able to keep your look... In real life when you change your running shoes... Will you call Nike and tell them "Hey I preferred that model last year... can you make me a special pair that look EXACTLY the same but have the same new features you put on the new ones ???
No.

But this is a game.

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3 - Some one brought a pretty interesting idea... I hope dev will read this... it would be a great idea that a "Synthweaver" (for example) would be able to transform any force armor from "Not moddable with stats" to full "Orange Moddable" items without any stats... So from that idea ... a "none" synthweaver that likes the look of that said armor... go see his friendly Synthweaver put it in a "special" trade window and RE it to become "orange" without stats... And maybe makes it a possible "crit" re-eng and the synthweaver can learn the schem...
No.

Players should not have to seek out crafters for this sort of function. If it's an option, it should be available via vendors. Perhaps crafters could do this for slightly less than the vendor would charge, but there always needs to be a reasonable player-free alternative.

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4 - This game is an MMO ... Once again Let's go back to the BASIC "M"MO... Multi-Player... MULTI... Meaning MANY... That means a "society" kinda thing... That means you cannot survive on your own... That means if you want something... Well you might have to ask help from someone else... If you want Oranges ... either make the mods your self... But you won't be able to make the orange armor yourself... Or make the orange yourself and find someone to help you mod your Armors...
No.

MMOs shouldn't require dependence on other players. Other players are around, they can be interacted with, they can help you out with things, but they should never be necessary. Player interaction should be for FUN, not because you can't function without it.

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5 - To the OP ... giving example about the remote control... the second floor... I would suggest instead of putting it on the second floor... Put it outside... maybe you'll realize there is a real world outside... and you cannot modify everything you want just because you had something that looked like it...
Yes, mom. Now I'm going to get back to playing a game to have fun, rather than playing it as a second career.

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I detailed a system before the board wipe where a crafter picks up an appropriate Grey item and RE's it to learn the Green version. Then RE's the Green multiple to learn 3-5 Blue recipes, then RE's each of them to learn the Blue with one slot (2 on a crit), RE again to learn the Purple version, RE that to learn the Purple version with 2 slots (3 on a crit) and RE that to learn the Orange version.
I would only support that much effort and expense if the orange piece generated at the top came pre-stuffed with a full suite of purple mods, so that it had superior stats to the purple versions you had to sacrifice to learn it.

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But that isn't true, let me clearify what they REALLY mean.

"You can still work hard if you want, WE just don't want too...."
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. There's an anime character named "Rock Lee" who is a very hard worker. He sets a goal for himself to, say, do a thousand push-ups, and if he fails at that goal, he has a penalty goal, like "run a thousand laps." Nobody forces these rules on him, and he can quit at any time, but he likes the reward of hard work, so he sets these goals, and he has the self control to complete them. He doesn't impose those rules on anyone else, because he feels that the reward comes from setting and achieving the goal. If you believe there is value in YOU acquiring and maintaining a full set of orange gear, then you pursue that goal, and you enforce the rules you choose to set for yourself. You shouldn't have to force those same rules on me for you to gain enjoyment from the process.

It's like those people that were whinging about how Normal mode was "too easy" for Dragon Age 2. Well there are two harder modes than that, feel free to play those if you like! Make your own fun. I prefer a system that is designed so that the baseline experience is fairly easy, so that anyone can get in there and enjoy it, but that allows players to set their own rules of self-control to make things more challenging.

Like take space combat, for example. If you get all the upgrades, it becomes really very easy to beat (beyond the first few stages that are always easy), but if you want more of a challenge, just don't equip all the available upgrades, or set personal goals like destroying targets that aren't necessary objectives, and judge your own performance based on your own criteria.

I just cannot justify those who want to make other people's lives harder and less fun simply because they're incapable of setting and maintaining their own rigorous gameplay rules.

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One important aspect of games for me is the loot feeling rewarding, and with the current orange system it just fails to feel so. Most gear drop is just vendor trash because I dislike their look, and their stats doesn't matter.

My argument is that if appearance and stat customization were two different things not tied together, like it is in the current orange system, sometimes I'd get ugly gear for their stats, and sometimes I'd get bad gear for their looks, increasing the chances the loot having any rewarding feeling. In the current system is just: Oh, I dislike the looks, vendor trash no matter the stats...
That's the problem I'm having too. I'm constantly getting gear that either looks awesome, but is non-modifiable and has worse stats than what I've got, so it's trash, or it has great stats but looks stupid, so I'll either swap it in for a couple levels and bare looking stupid for a while (not fun) or do without the good stats until I can find/mod something with both good stats and good appearance (also not fun). WHY? Why is "fun" a bad thing?

Even the most "generous" proposals for improving the orange gear system would do little to solve this problem. They might make it slightly easier to find orange gear, but most non-orange gear would still be complete vendor trash unless the system also included some way to make practical use of them. I mean, the only way I could think to solve that problem while retaining the gist of the "orange" system would be if any player, regardless of crew skills, could RE any piece of gear they found into an orange version, OR could RE it into a mod that they could slot into their existing orange gear. This would be the only way in which a piece of ugly but strong gear could be made useful, or a piece of gorgeous but weak gear could be made useful, while retaining the "orange only" system for appearance control.

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I would suggest people here read these articles:

http://www.swtor.com/blog/some-clari...-modifications

http://www.swtor.com/blog/why-unify-...and-whats-next

I think these answer a lot of concerns and suggestions I have seen in this thread.
Nope.

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This crap again! When are the appearance tab freaks going to give up making all these garbage threads about the same topic over and over?
Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but I'd likely give it up after they add the appearance tab system to the game, assuming it works well enough.

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The issue hasn't been ignored by Bioware. They've responded countless times stating that with the mod system an appearance tab isn't needed.
Claiming that a problem is not a problem is ignoring the problem.

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Appearance tab would break the mod system, and since I kinda like that, I hope we never get one.
No it wouldn't, and repeating this lie only istracts from the issue at hand.

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It just feels lame. With an appearance tab, why have stat based armor at all?
I don't see them as mutually exclusive, but forced to choose I would much rather have an appearance tab than to have statbased armor. Consider the lore. There is no statbased armor in the lore. "high level" characters in the movies and books and other materials do not wear functionally superior gear to low level characters. There might be some minor distinctions between "cloth" and "heavy" armors, but not between the clothing worn by New Hope Luke and that worn by Jedi Luke. I think it's best to keep the stats of SW gear separate in your own head from appearance. It just gets silly if you take the idea of the gear "empowering" your character too seriously. Instead, just consider it that your character gains access to more fancy gear as he gains status, and also that your character gets stronger as he goes, and as it so happens, a portion of that strengthening is attached to "gear", but really appearance and stats should have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

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I don't want some schmuck wearing the best robes in the game because he visited some vendor the right way.
Nobody's talking about that. Nobody's talking about making it any easier to get access to high level gear. If you look like you're wearing a full set of epic endgame gear, then you must have found some epic, endgame gear in some epic, endgame content. All this system would do is make it so that if you do have epic, endgame gear, but think that it makes you look ridiculous, then you can choose to look like any other looks you've acquired as you've leveled, while retaining those epic, engage stats.

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If they didn't the game would be "over" very quickly. The game you're looking for is Skyrim, KOTOR, Fallout 3, etc.
or DCUO, Champions Online, CoH, LotRO, WoW, etc.

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Wow had 7 years to get to where it was those of us that remember the original launch it had more than a few flaws. Give it time.
Yeah, but WoW came out seven years ago, and games have gotten better since then. Most games that have launched after WoW have had an appearance management system in at launch. There are places where it's fair to compare a game to an older game at launch, and unfair to expect them to have all the features and content that took that older game years to develop, but in other cases, a new game does need to learn from the mistakes of older games and get in line with the new. Nobody is expecting SWTOR to launch with full freedom space combat like SWG took a year after launch to develop, or for it to have a full 80+ levels of content like WoW has now, but an appearance tab is definitely something that should have been in the game months ago.

Niyenna's Avatar


Niyenna
12.28.2011 , 10:22 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post

I don't see them as mutually exclusive, but forced to choose I would much rather have an appearance tab than to have statbased armor. Consider the lore. There is no statbased armor in the lore. "high level" characters in the movies and books and other materials do not wear functionally superior gear to low level characters. There might be some minor distinctions between "cloth" and "heavy" armors, but not between the clothing worn by New Hope Luke and that worn by Jedi Luke. I think it's best to keep the stats of SW gear separate in your own head from appearance. It just gets silly if you take the idea of the gear "empowering" your character too seriously. Instead, just consider it that your character gains access to more fancy gear as he gains status, and also that your character gets stronger as he goes, and as it so happens, a portion of that strengthening is attached to "gear", but really appearance and stats should have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
If you must bring in Star Wars lore, then riddle me this: why doesn't my lightsaber kill everything in one hit?

The answer is simple: This is a game, and this game uses time-honored systems specifically designed to allow players to go beyond the limitations of the original fiction while immersing themselves in the essence of the fictitious world. These systems have been honed by many people over many years in an attempt to bring players as close as possible to the original lore, while providing an engaging gameplay experience.

The mod system allows a wide range of appearance customization which will expand as you level, and doesn't invalidate one of the core mechanics of the game.

If you don't want stat-based gear, I believe The Secret World is going in that direction.

Amadox's Avatar


Amadox
12.28.2011 , 12:13 PM | #74
look is very important to me too. but to some degree, i enjoy working for that look and working to keep it up, and that is what the mod system requires and encourages you to do.

as far as looks go, an appearance tab on the other hand would render any work useless because who cares to do any more work if you get your perfect appearance on level 10 and never need to do anything again to keep it?

so as initially said, i do prefer to work to get my look and to keep it. which is why i love the modding system that already perfectly enables us to customize our look, and why i hope they expand that (maybe a way to convert an item to empty orange ones just for the look) and NEVER add an appearance tab for you lazy whiners.

Ohoni's Avatar


Ohoni
12.28.2011 , 01:17 PM | #75
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If you must bring in Star Wars lore, then riddle me this: why doesn't my lightsaber kill everything in one hit?
Cortosis weave in the armors/clothing. Also the light sabers seem to be a bit weaker than they ended up after a few thousand years.

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as far as looks go, an appearance tab on the other hand would render any work useless because who cares to do any more work if you get your perfect appearance on level 10 and never need to do anything again to keep it?
If you get your perfect look by level 10 then you shouldn't have to work to keep it. Take DCUO as an example. In that game, about 20-30% of the game's total costume pieces are available in character creation (although you only get to leave CC with the clothes on your back, so if you want options you need to re-collect all those styles later through other means), After that, another 30-40% of the styles are available between 1-30 (cap) from vendors, drops, quest rewards, etc. Then, the remainder of styles are available only at endgame in the form of loot and their version of "Commendation tokens", so there is plenty of gear that says "I'm level 30 and full of win."

So they have plenty of "endgame" gear with endgame stats and endgame appearances, but I've never seen anyone that actually wears a full suite of endgame loot visually, because in DCUO the two can be managed independently. Of my six endgame characters in that game, most have at least a couple pieces of level 30 gear showing (not usually the piece they have buffing their stats in that slot, but something that you'd need to be level 30 to earn at least), but usually also have several pieces that com from much lower levels, in some cases even bits that they chose in character creation have remained from 1-30+. Not one of them has survived the trip without changing their appearances in some way though, not one has been satisfied with their appearance at level 10 and never found at least a piece or two that they considered to be an improvement. But if I had, then I'd much rather to be able to keep that look than to be forced to change it, or have to jump through crazy hoops to keep it.

Now I'm not expecting a system with quite as much freedom as DCUO's, for example I'd be fine with having no choices at character creation (although being able to choose between 2-3 class-appropriate starter set options would be nice), but even just keeping the post CC appearance tabs would be great, allowing even level 10 characters the option to choose between the 3-4 tops and pants styles they're likely to have come across over that period. I guarantee you that if that were an option then even by Esseles/Black Talon you'd be noticing a lot more player creativity in appearance.

ColonelKer-Nal's Avatar


ColonelKer-Nal
12.28.2011 , 04:51 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post
MMOs shouldn't require dependence on other players. Other players are around, they can be interacted with, they can help you out with things, but they should never be necessary. Player interaction should be for FUN, not because you can't function without it.
This is an MMO. And you have just invalidated EVERY argument you have ever made about this game because you don't seem to understand that MMOs involve player interaction.

Besides, you don't need other players. You can make 8 characters per server and there are only 6 crafting professions.

In your quest for instant gratification you would make crafting more pointless than it already is.

BTW, if you make a purple armor and RE it, you can always make the same purple armor again. So suggesting that when REing a purple to get an orange the orange should come full of purple mods is..... Well it smacks of entitlement to me.

Besides, that system would be sooooo broken. I mean I craft an orange armor and it's got 3-4 purple mods in it? Rip those puppies out and sell 'em on the market. Sorry about your Artificer/Cybertecher......
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
~Robert A. Heinlein

Korialstrazs's Avatar


Korialstrazs
12.28.2011 , 05:47 PM | #77
I don't really like the current customization system, because I don't like mods. I really don't. Every single piece of gear I'm wearing is snythweaving made and optimized. I re-ed until I got redoubt defense/shield pieces, and they're fantastic. And if/when I have to switch over to filling every piece of gear with three mods from two-three different people I'll be very sad.
"I've yet to face anything I can't overcome"

Ohoni's Avatar


Ohoni
12.29.2011 , 12:16 AM | #78
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This is an MMO. And you have just invalidated EVERY argument you have ever made about this game because you don't seem to understand that MMOs involve player interaction.
Some people develop these very distorted ideas of what an MMO "must" be, but the fact is that an MMO is whatever the players want it to be. They are about playing in a space with other players, but how much each player interacts with others should be entirely up to him. Some players play MMOs and never group, blasphemous, I know, but the point is whether they are having fun or not. Players should be allowed to interact, there should be things that players can do with each other, but player interaction should never be forced on players, there should always be options.

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BTW, if you make a purple armor and RE it, you can always make the same purple armor again. So suggesting that when REing a purple to get an orange the orange should come full of purple mods is..... Well it smacks of entitlement to me.
If you make a purple armor and RE, you get a fraction of the materials, back, likely the most expensive of the materials. If the "drop rate" of orange schematics was relative to the drop rate of purple ones then you would lose a LOT of purple-class materials in the quest to achieve the perfect orange schematic. The reward needs to be more than just an empty hull that has no practical strength, and which the Armormech has no ability to empower. It either needs to come pre-filled, or the Armormech needs the skills to fill it. If it takes multiple purples to learn to craft it, then it needs to be purple+ when you get it, purple plus the ability to upgrade it later.

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Besides, that system would be sooooo broken. I mean I craft an orange armor and it's got 3-4 purple mods in it? Rip those puppies out and sell 'em on the market. Sorry about your Artificer/Cybertecher......
I was under the impression that purple gear already came with purple Mods and Enhancements in them, just not Armorings as those were burned in. It used to be that mods were locked into place, and that while you could overwrite them, you could to remove them. While they needn't go back to that on ALL gear, making the default mods placed in these "purple-filled oranges" locked in wouldn't be a terrible idea. Also, if you remove a mod from a piece of gear, shouldn't both the gear and the mod be bound to you? This would at least prevent you from selling them piecemeal on the open market.

ColonelKer-Nal's Avatar


ColonelKer-Nal
12.29.2011 , 12:26 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post
Some people develop these very distorted ideas of what an MMO "must" be, but the fact is that an MMO is whatever the players want it to be. They are about playing in a space with other players, but how much each player interacts with others should be entirely up to him. Some players play MMOs and never group, blasphemous, I know, but the point is whether they are having fun or not. Players should be allowed to interact, there should be things that players can do with each other, but player interaction should never be forced on players, there should always be options.
<sigh> Look, I am as fervent about my character looking the way I want them to as you are.

I'd like to be interested in crafting as well, however, the state of crafting right now is also..... Hmmm, I've always said "if you can't express yourself well without profanity, you can't express yourself well". Guess I can't express myself well, because I am completely at a loss for PG rated words to describe just what a waste of time crafting is right now. There is litteraly zero point in it, and there will be less point than that if we get an A-Tab.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post
If you make a purple armor and RE, you get a fraction of the materials, back, likely the most expensive of the materials. If the "drop rate" of orange schematics was relative to the drop rate of purple ones then you would lose a LOT of purple-class materials in the quest to achieve the perfect orange schematic. The reward needs to be more than just an empty hull that has no practical strength, and which the Armormech has no ability to empower. It either needs to come pre-filled, or the Armormech needs the skills to fill it. If it takes multiple purples to learn to craft it, then it needs to be purple+ when you get it, purple plus the ability to upgrade it later.
No one said it was going to be simple, easy, or cheap. As you have noticed, the state of crafting leaves a lot to be desired right now.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post
I was under the impression that purple gear already came with purple Mods and Enhancements in them, just not Armorings as those were burned in. It used to be that mods were locked into place, and that while you could overwrite them, you could to remove them. While they needn't go back to that on ALL gear, making the default mods placed in these "purple-filled oranges" locked in wouldn't be a terrible idea. Also, if you remove a mod from a piece of gear, shouldn't both the gear and the mod be bound to you? This would at least prevent you from selling them piecemeal on the open market.
Do not even get me started on the evils of bound items. BoE is one thing, BoP.... again I can't seem to express myself well here.

We seem to agree on at least two things here. The state of both the visual arts and crafting need a lot of work.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
~Robert A. Heinlein

Matte_Black's Avatar


Matte_Black
12.29.2011 , 12:27 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post
This is just for people that aren't satisfied with the current system, those that have had to put away appearances that they liked in favor of ones with better stats that they haven't liked as much, and do not feel that they should be put at a mechanical disadvantage behind players that do not care about their appearance.
Can you give a specific case where you actually HAD to wear and ugly piece of gear?

Sometimes, I may have had to run another quest first and level-up or gear-up another slot first or grab a helper but, I personally have been able to skip wearing better gear that I did not like the look of and still do just fine. The game is just not that hard.
"I really wanted to bring in the three BioWare pillars to the online space. Those are represented by story, by the player's choice in story, and by characters. Those are the three big things that I felt weren't really well represented in the MMO space." - James Ohlen