First of all please excuse my bad English.

 

This post is addressed to all SWTOR players who have an open mind and have not played endgame content with the Op/Sco class so far. I hope that it might change the way you view of this class. Please only reply to my post if you have fully read it.

 

When you think of the class Operative/Scoundrel, what is the first thought that pops into your head? I think for most of us (myself included) you think of a situation in which an Op/Sco got the jump on you from stealth, locked you down and killed you while you couldn't do anything but just take the beating. Or maybe you think about a video that have seen on Youtube in which an Operative killed someone else in PvP with 3 or 4 hits.

You probably don't think of all those times in which a Sco/Op was not being able to attack from stealth and caused no threat, but was merely a "free kill" for you. Because in those situations he did not frustrate you enough to really notice him.

This is selective memory at work: When an Op/Sco kills you it is a very frustrating experience because of the way you are being killed. Also it is very easy to remember those Youtube videos in which people were stacking adrenals, stims, relics and pounding on underequipped opponents pre nerf, doing insane amounts of damage to them.

Compare this to a Sentinel. The Sentinel's DoTs can crit for >2k but while that is a HUGE amount of damage it is not really that noticeable.

Or compare it to a Gunsinger. When one kills you, often times you won't even know where the damage was coming from. So there is much less frustration involved and Snipers/Gunslingers are considered "weak in PvP".

 

The Sco/Op class (when specced as DD) has one (and only one) strength: Coming from stealth, doing quick burst damage, killing their target, and going back into stealth again. When they kill their target fast (and noone else shoots at them) they are "out of combat" again and thus able to restealth. However when they don't kill their target (or they take too much time for the kill and someone else did a tiny amount of damage to them) they can be "in combat" (and thus not being able to restealth) for a very long time.

Now a Sco/Op out of stealth is inferior to every other class. The class has very bad survivablity and when it doesn't get the chance to attack from stealth the damage is also pretty weak.

A Scoundrel who is not able to restealth is essentially dead in the water.

So to sum up:

- When Scos/Ops do enough damage to make quick kills they are brutally strong in PvP

- When Scos/Ops don't do enough damage to make quick kills they are very weak in PvP

This shows how difficult it is to balance this class.

 

 

In the first weeks after the launch of SWTOR, Ops/Scoundrels were clearly able to make those "quick kills" and therefore too strong in PvP. A lot of players complained about them and rightfully so. With this class it was too easy to make quick kills, restealth and do it all over again.

However I think a lot of that was also due to the fact that

1) People didn't have great gear. Just think of Marauders/Sentinels and how squishy they were in the beginning without decent gear but they have become beasts as soon as they got their champion/bm sets.

2) The scaling of surge rating, which was fixed only 2 weeks ago.

3) Biochem stims were overpowered and they were/are more powerful in an Op's/Sco's hands than any other class, because they can use them with much better timing.

And also noone really considered the fact, that while they were beasts in 1v1, Scoundrels and Operatives were the weakest class in the most played warzone: Huttball

Yes, they could do a ton of damage and farm medals in Huttball, but they had (and still have) the least utility in terms of scoring points.

 

So Bioware listened to the complaints and they nerfed the class. And even though I have already stated that I think a nerf was indeed needed, I also think that it was just too big of a nerf. Especially considering the fact that the surge rating was also fixed later on which hit Scoundrels and Operatives the hardest out of all classes because they rely on quick burst damage the most.

 

So what the nerfs essentially did was taking away the one and only strength that Ops/Scos had: Burst damage. They really have no other purpose other than that. No big tools to influence battles like harpoon, pull, force leap, speed, knockback and so on. They can come from stealth and do as much damage as possible. If they fail at that they are almost useless.

 

 

Yesterday I was watching Lazyrix' (very good Sentinel pvp player) pvp stream and asked him what he thinks of Operatives/Scoundrels in pvp right now. He said "They can still do great damage. But I'd rather have other DPS classes in my team as I feel like they bring a lot more to the table."

I think that assessment is spot on.

 

The developers designed the entire class around burst damage and gave it no other tools. Then they took half of that damage away and gave nothing in return. The class has no real purpose anymore because a Shadow/Assassin can essentially do the same things, but a lot better.

Some players with skill and creativity still make their Operative or Scoundrel work in pvp, but they are fighting a constant uphill battle and could probably do much better with any other given class.

 

 

But even though I feel that this class is underperforming right now, I love the Scoundrel's playstyle and I really don't want to play any other class.

This post is not about whining about imbalances in the game but hope that some of the people who still think that this class is overpowered think about what I have written and don't ask Bioware to nerf our class even further as that would probably break it.

 

There is a big discussion going on about whether or not Sorcs/Sages are overpowered right now. I don't think that they are. But I do think it is much easier to play a Sorc/Sage to its full potential these days because their counter class has been subject to pretty big nerfs.

So maybe the solution to this would be to give Scoundrels/Operatives some damage and/or utility back instead of posting another "Please nerf Sorc" thread every day.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Ich_Bin

I am an operative that has no interest in reading a rant this long.

I haven't seen a dps specced operative in warzones on my pvp server since the surge nerf. I have seen up to 8 hybrid specced sorc in one warzone though...

 

Working as intended. Play Hybrid Sorc/sage tell everyone to l2p, because this development team thinks a class should get an automatic root on knockback that isn't part of resolve along with a ranged stun, a ranged slow, a ranged interrupt, a instant cast CC, and an attack that autokites. In addition they think melee deserve no immunity to snares, no second gap close (they have both of these in WoW) and can't be spam dispelled by healers.

 

Perhaps you are looking for sympathy? HA. People don't care. They all rerolled ranged, other then tanks/healers.

 

They cried until they got you nerfed to the ground and now tell you to l2p when you point out that the most OP ranged class (as hybrid spec) ever seen in a game is the class/spec that was truly OP.

 

I never saw an operative hit 900k to a million dmg on a voidstar...They sure as hell weren't doing it while backpedalling...

Edited February 26, 2012 by biowareftw

A fix would start by removing the resource regen penality when they get too low. That would increase the sustained dps for those classes.

ok here is my thoughts on the operative:

 

1. I think the only reason they were nerfed to death was because they were the direct counter to the fotm sorc class, and with so many sorc's posting nerf threads bw just went with the majority.

 

2. Now post-nerf they are terrible, i can easily kill them with my juggy and with my assassin with 70%+ of my hp remaining even when they get the jump on me from stealth.

 

3. Pve wise they are terrible, they have zero sustained dps, they are not welcome in any raids i run because having one in the raid is like being a man down.

 

I just don't know why anyone would play one right now over any of the other classes (except sniper which is probably even worse)

Edited February 26, 2012 by Evuke

ops still have the most damage potential out of any class by a wide margin, nor are they "helpless" by ANY stretch when out of stealth, at least no more than my pt (and ops have more defensive tools than my pt). not great out of stealth, by a far FAR cry from free kill.

 

and if you are comparing ops to assassin, congratulations. assassins are better than most of the melee specs in most areas.

 

other than a gap closer on a 45 second CD, ops dont need anything. still wouldnt call them balanced as they can still dropped geared people in seconds, but at least much more balanced than they used to be.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Ryotknife

Very nice post, I haven't made it to 50 on my scoundrel just yet but I am dreading it (Currently 48). Hoping they up Surge a little more but if not oh well I like have no intention of playing another class I don't enjoy my VG nearly as much as my scoundrel.

ops still have the most damage potential out of any class by a wide margin, nor are they "helpless" by ANY stretch when out of stealth, at least no more than my pt (and ops have more defensive tools than my pt)

 

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

 

There is so much wrong in your post? I am not even going to bother pointing it all out. BTW I am a sentinel and operatives/scoundrels are 100 percent useless in a warzone other then speccing for dots and keeping people from capping nodes.

 

In which case...

 

Why the HELL would you play a op/scoundrel over a sorc/sage who can also multidot...You wouldn't and that is why I haven't seen anything but heal operatives in any warzone in the last week or so.

Speaking as a fully geared sage, I completely agree with you.

 

The nerf to operatives was a kneejerk reaction and it was completely unnecessary.

 

Unfortunately, the majority of "gamers" these days are nothing but a bunch of crybabies, who lack the ability and/or the desire to think logically about the overall balance of whatever game they are playing. Instead, they get killed, and immediately start looking for somewhere to place the blame.

 

Your logical and insightful post will fall on deaf ears, and sages will be the next class to fall victim to this army of whiners.

DPS spec Operatives need to be nerfed. Way too op.

Sorc/Sage killers need the nerfbat to keep subscribers.

 

Atleast on my server according to the /who its the least played class now. Whopping ~28 on the server during 6pm last time I checked. Granted snipers are close with ~36.

As a Battle-master Healing Operative (I am a glutton for pain), I agree with your argument. Operatives are lackluster at the moment and for those that group together for PVP and try to get the best composition in Warzones, we are the last choice to be picked.

 

While I wont put my thoughts in for concealment nerfs, I would like to say something about the state of Operative healing in PVP, the largest obstacles that healing operatives must overcome is the Tactical Advantage system that they are forced to use, along with their energy regeneration. Tactical Advantage is troublesome in PVP due to its short duration, where it is often times not used or you don't have any when you need them most. A possible fix to this would be to extend the buff timer of TA and also increase the number of stacks an operative can hold.

 

Many of our heals are outright useless in most PVP situations, Recuperative Nanotech (the 31 point talent in our medicine tree) can be downright dangerous to use for it's high cost and quite possibly the worst heal we have, beyond Kolto Infusion. Kolto Infusion is also another heal which is rarely used for a similar reason, why use a cast heal (which consumed energy as well as a tactical advantage), when I can pop a Surgical Probe for free and consume my TA that way. It forces all operatives to continually hard cast their Kolto Injection (In order to: A. Heal, B. Regain TA's) in a PVP situation while bringing no amazing utility to the table.

 

While I love the Operative class, love the storyline, and have enjoyed a moderate amount of PVP, I wont be resubscribing due to the poor structuring of the class.

I myself as a operative concealment speced, don't really have such a big problem with my dps, i think its fine tbh, but, our utility REALLY needs a buff, im talking a gap closer here. Whenever i get into a hutball i just consider leaving it immediately, because it is absolute hell for operatives, we have 0 utility so we cant knock other classes off the gantries, but when we get knocked off by the 6(?) other advanced classes that have a knock-back we have to walk the 10-20 second walk back up to the gantries, it basically makes us unable to chase people carrying hutball, cause well just get knocked off, i sometimes just give up chasing over the gantries and farm dps mid.

 

To fix this i really think we need

 

A) a 80% movement speed sprint or so that last for maybe 5 sec(somewhere around there) for comparison the inquisitor/counselor one is 150% for 2 secs.

B) something similar to shadowstep in wow, basically something that can teleport us behind the target maybe 20-30 range.

 

Edit:typos

Edited February 26, 2012 by Forthehonor

Regarding concealment, I think hidden strike will need to be reworked. Having our best DPS ability tied to stealth hurts us in both PvP and PvE. Separate it into two abilities, like cheap shot and ambush for WoW rogues. Once that is done, give us a sprint or some other gap closer and buff our out of steath sustained DPS.

As an ex concealment operative I can say that I will never return to that tree.

I am now a fully specced healer and when playing in group with guard on me its pretty fun.

Instead of hate u get love <3

 

Though it frustrates me when I argument with people how gimped operative healers are compared to other healers.

 

"zomg u got 500k healing that warzone!! see! ur are NOT UP!!"

 

And then I laugh. No one thinks, no one sees anything beyond numbers that they have experienced.

 

This one warzone, i put on my Skirmisher title, and went against (clearly rookies to pvp), and it all went well, I laughed in Skype and had fun.

 

Though next game we met good people, who we're constantly on me. not letting me hard cast any heal (No TA thanks) and therefore no energy regen or other heals. I know its a pain for any healer to get targeted and disabled, but the ops/scounds suffer the most due to no knock back, no sprint, no bubbles, no heavy armor, no instant casts (unless u get that kolto hard casted) which rarely happen when focused.

 

We shine when aoe dmg, we shine when our target is below 30% health and can spam instants (note we need atleast one TA to do so, and therefore require to hard cast before).

But any direct damage to the target will kill it because this instant heal is MEH.

 

-Healing ops and scounds are clearly meant for PvE ONLY, in which we do well.

-Dps ops and scounds just dont belong anywhere, ESPECIALLY NOT when rated warzones hit the table and u need this good classes with utility to win games (not farm medals, a.k.a ops/scounds).

 

Have fun when there's only sith/bhs and jedi/troopers everywhere, have fun.

Operatives suck right now.

 

They need their damage and armor penetration rebuffed to where it was before the terribads started their forum QQ.

 

With surge and consumables toned down, operatives/smugglers need all the help they can get.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Redmarx

Operatives suck right now.

 

They need their damage and armor penetration rebuffed to where it was before the terribads started their forum QQ.

 

With surge and consumables toned down, it will be fine.

 

Tone down the surge and crit rate for all classes, and you've got yourselves a deal.

 

Frankly, compared to some games it is far too easy to achieve high level of crit/surge far too easily.

Tone down the surge and crit rate for all classes, and you've got yourselves a deal.

 

Frankly, compared to some games it is far too easy to achieve high level of crit/surge far too easily.

 

Surge and crit are really no longer issues. DRs set in hard and heavy at 70%.

 

Simply put, scoundrels/operatives are a broken, sucky class. They are weak at everything. I would take a mediocre anything over a good sc/op. That's how bad they are.

ops still have the most damage potential out of any class by a wide margin, nor are they "helpless" by ANY stretch when out of stealth, at least no more than my pt (and ops have more defensive tools than my pt). not great out of stealth, by a far FAR cry from free kill.

 

and if you are comparing ops to assassin, congratulations. assassins are better than most of the melee specs in most areas.

 

other than a gap closer on a 45 second CD, ops dont need anything. still wouldnt call them balanced as they can still dropped geared people in seconds, but at least much more balanced than they used to be.

 

I play a powertech, i'm only lvl 42 and I KNOW my 50 scoundral does not have more defensive tools then my PT. While I do not think scoundrals/ops do poorly in pvp, we do lack utility. I have to pick and choose my targets in pvp now, attacking a heavy armor wearer is a pointless endeavor from stealth, I'll sit and wait for a squishier character to join the fight and jump them.

 

They both use the same type of resource mechanic, just from opposite ends of the spectrum. One goes from 100-0 and the other goes from 0-100.

 

PT Defensive Tools (Advanced Prototype, not even a tank)

Defensive Screen - 25% Damage Reduction for 12 Seconds

Kolto Overload - 15% Health regained over 10 Seconds (Higher frontload heal with very small HoT)

Hydraulic Overrides - Immunity to knockbacks/snares/pulls/pushes for 8 Seconds (30 second cooldown)

Single Target Taunt - Yes, it is a defensive cooldown for your team

AoE Taunt - Yes, it is a defensive cooldown for your team

 

Scoundral Defensive Tools (Scrapper Spec)

Bubble - absorbs 2.5k Damage (approximately 1 non-crit)

Dodge - Removes all Tech/Force DoT and snares, lasts 3 seconds (This does not stop you from taking damage, only stops Tech/Force Abilities.)

Disappearing Act - Goes back into stealth while in combat

 

Looks like 5 and 3 to me.

 

Now here is the difference and why PT overall is better.

 

My PT has a SPAMMABLE ability that crits for 2.5-3k (Flame Burst)

My Scoundral does not.

 

My PT has a Grapple(Pull) on a 35 second cooldown

My Scoundral has a melee snare on a 12 second cooldown

 

My PT Cannot be knocked off ledges/knocked back for 8 seconds

My Scoundral has no tools to prevent knockbacks/pushes

 

My PT has Heavy Armor

My Scoundral does not

 

My PT has a Channeled AoE attack that hits everyone in the vacinity for 1k+ every second

My Scoundral has AoE that is 3 second cast and then another 3 seconds before any damage is actually done, making it extremely easy to avoid. (You can cast it on a group, and before they take damage, stealth will come off it's 6 second cooldown and you can go back into stealth as long as no one hits you)

 

My PT has a permanent 15% run speed buff

My scoundrals 15% run speed buff only works in stealth

 

My PT does more damage then ANY scoundral in 10-49 bracket and has MORE burst since I can SPAM my abilities without regard to cooldown.

 

The only thing my scoundral can do that my PT can't, is stealth and has 1 more stun which requires stealth. My scoundral also has an AoE Mez, but it is only useful in 1 vs 1 because of all the tab DoT'ers and AoE'ers.

 

Needless to say, my scoundral is a BM, I grinded him all the way there through WZ's and did not trade on him EVER. Even pre-ilum 2.0 I was the one that would sit in ilum drunk killing sith and after they are dead taking the bases while getting cursed out by all the repubs for starting unnecassary fights instead of letting them trade in peace.

 

And I haven't logged on him once since I started my Advanced Prototype PT and my Vigilance Jedi Guardian because he just doesn't compare to either of them in survivability, utility and sustained damage.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Xippin

I rerolled my Operative because of some of the problems mentioned already.

 

Being an Imp and playing 90% Huttball matches, I was getting so frustrated at getting knocked off the ledge, than deciding if I want to run up there and probably get killed by ranged, or stealth up there and be too late.

 

Any little thing breaking you out of stealth and then being stuck in combat for up to 30 seconds after.

 

I didn't heal much on my Operative but in pvp it seemed I was always locked down as the probes are a huge tell that you are a healer. The dynamics of healing on it just seems better on the two classes, an Operative is a melee class that heal with no instants. For that reason the other 2 healers are much better in pvp, as they can spam ranged damage when heals aren't needed.

Barely geared (hit 50 this week) on my Scoundrel and feel fine in the level 50 bracket. Damage is good, survivability is good, utility is good. I don't know where the "underperformance" comes from. Edited February 26, 2012 by Rogmar

It must be nice to play in warzones with other brand new 50's

Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and for your comments. To be honest I expected to recieve a lot of "L2P" and "QQ" comments and am really surprised and happy that there hasn't been a single one so far.

I really hope that Bioware will read this thread, too.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Ich_Bin

My dots have never crit over 2k.

 

 

And last I checked, Operatives can still backstab/lacerate out of stealth.

tldr version?