2/22/2012 -> Can we get an update on where the Combat Log is?

You're calling people ignorant and then following up with this garbage?

going to pick your post apart statement by statement:

Your comment: "If they add logs it will in time become mandatory to use them"

Why you're wrong : Do you see the amount of people on here that are against their use? Seems to me there will be plenty of people happy to continue not using them, find each other and play together.

Your comment: players using combat logs need to "L2P"

Why you're wrong: A player that knows how to use and interpret information from a combat log will inevitably become a better player than the one who doesn't. People COULD continue to wipe to a boss and guess as to why but why would you want to? This isn't the 80's. A smart and efficient player will make use of a combat log to learn from their mistakes faster.

Your comment: "All the things you want to learn you can do by playing the freaking game"

Why you're wrong: Really? Without a combat log you can tell which dps was late switching to a group of adds during a given pull? You can tell if someones not on the right target? You can tell if someones instant death was from pulling aggro or accidentally getting cleaved? When you don't beat an enrage timer or are unable to heal through a heavy damage phase you can tell who was slacking? Amazing.

Your comment: "A lot of posters saying they need it for X and for y, are pure and simple lazy. They want easy street learning. I don't want to learn, I want some to tell me what I have to do. The fun in beating a boss is learning how they work, the triggers, the timers and the agro levels."

why you're wrong: This statement is beyond my comprehension. The people asking for meters so that they can better themselves are the lazy ones? The people who wanna be able to break down what happened throughout a boss fight are the lazy ones? The people who aren't satisfied with guessing all the time are the lazy ones? The lazy ones aren't the people who could care less about whats actually happening beneath the surface of a fight? The lazy ones aren't the people who don't care enough to do any of the things I listed above and subsequently waste other peoples time? Amazing.

Your comment: "You want a meter to tell you all this? Are you really that bad a player? I love how you are the ones accusing of us in the No camp of being bad players and the fact is you are such a bad player you can't even work out how to control agro"

Why you're wrong: You want people to just guess when they're close to pulling off of a tank? You want raid leaders to guess as to whose fault it was the tanks or the dps? How can you justify having a mechanic as important as threat without some way to monitor it? Then add in the fact that there are such things as enrage timers and tell me you shouldn't have some way of telling how close you are to pulling off a tank. There's a conflict there. You're telling people they need to push their dps in order to kill a boss but in the same breath giving them a mechanic like threat to deal with which provides the potential for disaster if they push too hard and you give them no way to effectively control themselves other than guessing. Sounds like a solid setup.

Finally, the people against combat logs need to relax. Nobody is forcing you to use them. Many of us will, but as evidenced by the many "No" posters on this thread and other threads, many will prefer not to. A little work on your part to find those people and play with them will solve your problems. Also, the people who say they're used to belittle people need to realize that the ones doing the belittling will find a way to call others out even without combat logs. I have used combat logs in other games, I know how to use them to find even the smallest mistake someone makes but I've never belittled anyone or purposely embarrassed anyone because their damage or healing was low. The most I've ever done is whisper them asking them to step it up a notch so we could get by a certain boss and the funny thing is, they usually do meaning they were slacking prior to that. I've also offered to help people with their rotations if I knew their class reasonably well. Know what I used to determine what they were doing wrong? A combat log/damage meter. By seeing where their damage was coming from along with a bunch of other info you can access from a log/meter I'm able to see if they're priorities are off and they're using "ability A" more often than they're using "ability B."

Don't try to stereotype all combat log users as elitests. All elitests use combat logs but not all people that use combat logs are elitests.

Back into the circle we go, this is tiresome. If you have a different line of arguement you want to present go we can continue. But we've discussed this same exact line over and over. It's grown stale. I've enjoyed our discussion though, it was cordial and polite, thanks for having it.

You're calling people ignorant and then following up with this garbage?

going to pick your post apart statement by statement:

Your comment: "If they add logs it will in time become mandatory to use them"

Why you're wrong : Do you see the amount of people on here that are against their use? Seems to me there will be plenty of people happy to continue not using them, find each other and play together.

Your comment: players using combat logs need to "L2P"

Why you're wrong: A player that knows how to use and interpret information from a combat log will inevitably become a better player than the one who doesn't. People COULD continue to wipe to a boss and guess as to why but why would you want to? This isn't the 80's. A smart and efficient player will make use of a combat log to learn from their mistakes faster.

Your comment: "All the things you want to learn you can do by playing the freaking game"

Why you're wrong: Really? Without a combat log you can tell which dps was late switching to a group of adds during a given pull? You can tell if someones not on the right target? You can tell if someones instant death was from pulling aggro or accidentally getting cleaved? When you don't beat an enrage timer or are unable to heal through a heavy damage phase you can tell who was slacking? Amazing.

Your comment: "A lot of posters saying they need it for X and for y, are pure and simple lazy. They want easy street learning. I don't want to learn, I want some to tell me what I have to do. The fun in beating a boss is learning how they work, the triggers, the timers and the agro levels."

why you're wrong: This statement is beyond my comprehension. The people asking for meters so that they can better themselves are the lazy ones? The people who wanna be able to break down what happened throughout a boss fight are the lazy ones? The people who aren't satisfied with guessing all the time are the lazy ones? The lazy ones aren't the people who could care less about whats actually happening beneath the surface of a fight? The lazy ones aren't the people who don't care enough to do any of the things I listed above and subsequently waste other peoples time? Amazing.

Your comment: "You want a meter to tell you all this? Are you really that bad a player? I love how you are the ones accusing of us in the No camp of being bad players and the fact is you are such a bad player you can't even work out how to control agro"

Why you're wrong: You want people to just guess when they're close to pulling off of a tank? You want raid leaders to guess as to whose fault it was the tanks or the dps? How can you justify having a mechanic as important as threat without some way to monitor it? Then add in the fact that there are such things as enrage timers and tell me you shouldn't have some way of telling how close you are to pulling off a tank. There's a conflict there. You're telling people they need to push their dps in order to kill a boss but in the same breath giving them a mechanic like threat to deal with which provides the potential for disaster if they push too hard and you give them no way to effectively control themselves other than guessing. Sounds like a solid setup.

Finally, the people against combat logs need to relax. Nobody is forcing you to use them. Many of us will, but as evidenced by the many "No" posters on this thread and other threads, many will prefer not to. A little work on your part to find those people and play with them will solve your problems. Also, the people who say they're used to belittle people need to realize that the ones doing the belittling will find a way to call others out even without combat logs. I have used combat logs in other games, I know how to use them to find even the smallest mistake someone makes but I've never belittled anyone or purposely embarrassed anyone because their damage or healing was low. The most I've ever done is whisper them asking them to step it up a notch so we could get by a certain boss and the funny thing is, they usually do meaning they were slacking prior to that. I've also offered to help people with their rotations if I knew their class reasonably well. Know what I used to determine what they were doing wrong? A combat log/damage meter. By seeing where their damage was coming from along with a bunch of other info you can access from a log/meter I'm able to see if they're priorities are off and they're using "ability A" more often than they're using "ability B."

Don't try to stereotype all combat log users as elitests. All elitests use combat logs but not all people that use combat logs are elitests.

Actually according to some studies, raiders are above 30+ years old as an average and usually are better educated and have better jobs than average population so your Kids yelling in basement doesnt suit to the playerbase that actually has use for these tools and who are actually asking for me. Combat logs and meters in a form or another has been basic feature in almost ever MMORPG up to date.

Nope I have no other line of argument.

Find like minded players and most of these types of issues dissappear. I am glad you can enjoy the game on your terms with a combat log, as you control wther you use it or not. If more people would play(as you do) with like minded players they would enjoy the game so so mcuh more.

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.