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Marriage and kids?


Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
05.23.2013 , 04:44 PM | #201
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
On one hand, yes, kinda. But imagine if you shifted both ages about ten years younger. Still the same spread difference in ages, but suddenly it seems less okay.

I actually think that the origin of these rules is because of the inherent inequality created by a big age gap, and so it extends even beyond just kids. Theoretically when both are "adults" they can choose for themselves but that doesn't completely eliminate the problems. It's just that those problems at that point become personal relationship problems instead of a society wide concern.

Some people even believe in an equation, that if someone multiplies the younger relationship by two and subtracts seven, that represents the oldest possible age that younger person can be involved with before the relationship becomes a little sketchy. And as you get into the upper biological age limit, the situation reverses itself - it becomes the elderly that society becomes concerned that the younger partner might be taking advantage of.

Here, imagine a different situation between human cultures on earth. Some cultures think that humans become adults when they finish puberty, which might be as young as thirteen. They even use thirteen year olds as child soldiers, and people we consider children have seen more terrible mature stuff than older people from another culture. They get married at thirteen, have children at thirteen. On another angle, some thirteen year olds, male or female, sometimes look much precociously older than they actually are - biologically, they appear to be mature.

A Chiss is ten but looks twenty, their culture considers them an adult. I'm prepared to claim it's probably still not okay.
Sure, 15-year-old person shouldn't be dating a 30-year-old-person, and that's because the 15-year-old person isn't mature enough to be called an adult.

So, think of clones. They come out completely mature from their cloning tanks. Should they wait 18 years before they date anyone, since they practically haven't lived for a long time, even though they are mentally and physically mature?

What I'm trying to say is, you can't say that species x is old enough at the age of 18 just because humans are. It's like saying that dogs aren't adults before they turn 18. Not to mention that a few hundred years earlier, people seemed to think it's okay for 15 years old girl to get married. That sounds ridiculous now, and who knows, maybe a few hundred years from now, people will think that we are not "adults" until we turn 25 or something, and think that getting married in the age of 18 was absolutely barbaric.

Let's think of an imaginary species that lives only 1 year. They are fully mature at the age of 2 months. I can understand saying that it's not okay to date that kind of creature because she/he will die soon, or that she is simply too different, but saying that "you can't date her/him because if she/he was a human, she'd/he'd be just a baby" sounds rather funny.

I won't say there wouldn't be any problems, big differences in ages can be problematic even with 2 adults. If a 20-year-old person dates a person old enough to be her/his grandparent, people will wonder what's wrong with that person (and maybe if the old person is rich or famous). But if a member of some species is truly mentally and physically as adult as they will ever get, then it shouldn't be a problem just because "if he/she would be human". Well, he/she isn't a human and doesn't age like a human and shouldn't be treated as a human.
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Yermog's Avatar


Yermog
05.23.2013 , 04:56 PM | #202
I personally agree with Seireen's view on this one. A 10 year old Chiss will have gone through puberty and everything much earlier than we would have, true, but that doesn't make them any less of an adult. If anything, it might make them more of one because they've had to go through everything much sooner than a human would have.

Look at the Asari in the Mass Effect universe. They live to a thousand years, and Liara T'Soni is over a hundred years old when you first meet her. She's 70-80 years older than Shepard, but that doesn't stop the two of them from starting an intense passionate romance if the player so chooses. And other Asari date and marry Salarians, who live on average 60 years.

I know that's crossing different universes, but I was just using that as an example. In the end I think it just comes down to how an individual feels about it. If it weirds a person out to be romantically involved with someone so much older/younger than them, then it's perfectly fine for them to view it as odd. I think the rule should pretty much be as long as the person is a legal adult within their own society, it should be alright to engage in a romance as long as both parties are comfortable and aware of what a relationship with someone else, be it of the same or a different species, entails.

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.23.2013 , 05:34 PM | #203
Quote: Originally Posted by Seireeni View Post
Sure, 15-year-old person shouldn't be dating a 30-year-old-person, and that's because the 15-year-old person isn't mature enough to be called an adult.

So, think of clones. They come out completely mature from their cloning tanks. Should they wait 18 years before they date anyone, since they practically haven't lived for a long time, even though they are mentally and physically mature?
Kinda think so, yeah.

Quote:
Let's think of an imaginary species that lives only 1 year. They are fully mature at the age of 2 months. I can understand saying that it's not okay to date that kind of creature because she/he will die soon, or that she is simply too different, but saying that "you can't date her/him because if she/he was a human, she'd/he'd be just a baby" sounds rather funny.
Wasn't what I was saying. Was saying that despite being physically and mentally mature, such a species would lack the equivalent life experience (and very likely accumulated wealth) that an older person of a different species would have. Thus inherent inequality.

And in the case where we can say someone much younger has been through more life experiences, packed more into those short years, like a child soldier, even if that's a cultural norm for them it's still kinda iffy, because it's potentially added onto psychological trauma and adding complications that someone that young doesn't need to deal with.

Quote:
I won't say there wouldn't be any problems, big differences in ages can be problematic even with 2 adults. If a 20-year-old person dates a person old enough to be her/his grandparent, people will wonder what's wrong with that person (and maybe if the old person is rich or famous). But if a member of some species is truly mentally and physically as adult as they will ever get, then it shouldn't be a problem just because "if he/she would be human". Well, he/she isn't a human and doesn't age like a human and shouldn't be treated as a human.
But this raises a problem with the internal consistency of this rule. I brought up the issue of a reverse scenario where one species ages and physically matures slower, but perhaps gains emotionally maturity and memories at the same rate. Mentally that person could be an adult. Physically they would look very young. So, use the legal standards we've developed, even if they might appear underaged (problems)? Consider them not human and not subject to our standards (problems)? Consider them mature by mental maturity, or biological (problems)?

There's really no good way to deal with the issue of differing rates of aging. And that's not even getting into the goldfish-Asari scenario mentioned in the post above me.

Yermog's Avatar


Yermog
05.23.2013 , 08:05 PM | #204
Well, while I can appreciate your views and your logical approach to discussing it, I have to say that I still disagree with you on the matter of how you define "mature enough to be in a relationship" in regards to different ways of aging, etc, etc. I appreciate you going out of your way to explain your thought process on the matter, though. I did enjoy reading it.

Regardless of whether or not you should romance someone who either ages faster/slower or hasn't experienced enough of life, I highly doubt that the SWTOR devs would create a Chiss character who was in their teens and then allow them to marry in-game. As has already been stated by some, this could cause some issues in the player base and possibly with others. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say all the characters are in their early to mid twenties at the time the story opens. Plus, not everyone cares enough about the lore to read into the aging process of various alien species, including Chiss. For safety's sake, I'd say that BioWare would make the official age well above the legal one present in most countries. Torian Cadera is the youngest male romance option, and I believe that he's 18 or 19. I'm a big enough looser to do the math on how old he is at the start of the BH storyline.

Interestingly enough, Quinn is the oldest male romance at the age of 37. I was pretty surprised at that. If anything, I'd expect Aric Jorgan to be that age, but he's only 30.

DarthBlaide's Avatar


DarthBlaide
05.23.2013 , 08:28 PM | #205
Quote:
Genetic analysis later confirmed that the Chiss were indeed an offshoot of the Human species' earliest attempts at colonization. It was believed that sometime before 27,000 BBY, a lost colony of Humans settled in the Unknown Regions on the planet Csilla
- Chiss entry on Wookiepedia

The entry then goes on to explain how the Chiss are basically humans.

Yermog's Avatar


Yermog
05.23.2013 , 08:45 PM | #206
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBlaide View Post
- Chiss entry on Wookiepedia

The entry then goes on to explain how the Chiss are basically humans.
Huh. Well that's good to know. I guess I didn't think it was possible due to having never seen a Chiss/human hybrid before. Maybe Vector and my Chiss Agent can increase the number of their odd little family after all then.

It may just be me, because the guys are the ones who bring it up in conversation, but it seems like the male romances want kids more than FemToons do. It's interesting when those conversations come up.

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.23.2013 , 09:29 PM | #207
Quote: Originally Posted by Yermog View Post
Well, while I can appreciate your views and your logical approach to discussing it, I have to say that I still disagree with you on the matter of how you define "mature enough to be in a relationship" in regards to different ways of aging, etc, etc. I appreciate you going out of your way to explain your thought process on the matter, though. I did enjoy reading it.
And thank you for being willing to participate. These can be pretty tricky conversations to have. I really try not to judge people and their relationships, having once been a precocious kid myself, if I'd had that inclination it would have annoyed the heck outta me to be told what I could and couldn't do. Mostly I'm just interested in exploring the logical basis of those rules, while acknowledging perhaps they are not universal, my initial reaction about the Sith aside.

Quote:
Regardless of whether or not you should romance someone who either ages faster/slower or hasn't experienced enough of life, I highly doubt that the SWTOR devs would create a Chiss character who was in their teens and then allow them to marry in-game. As has already been stated by some, this could cause some issues in the player base and possibly with others. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say all the characters are in their early to mid twenties at the time the story opens. Plus, not everyone cares enough about the lore to read into the aging process of various alien species, including Chiss. For safety's sake, I'd say that BioWare would make the official age well above the legal one present in most countries.
Agreed. I have no problems with this interpretation.

Sepp's Avatar


Sepp
05.23.2013 , 11:09 PM | #208
I think it'd be cool to be able to have kids... lots of neat stuff to do with them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hybrid

The Human species was able to interbreed with the Coynite, [1] Echani,[2] Ferroan,[3] Hamadryas,[4] Kiffar,[5] Miraluka,[6] Nagai,[7] Theelin,[8] Twi'lek species.[9] When Humans bred with the Kalai, the resulting offspring were known as Lethagoe[10] and with the Zabrak the Dathomirians.[11]

There is a list of the confirmed compatible races, lore wise. Chiss are not on the list, as of yet, nor can I recall Thrawn being referred to as an mixed species. They do not recognize his species, and the fact that he is an alien leads to Mon Mothma rejecting Han's claims that he saw a Grand Admiral (since the Empire was anti alien, she assumed he was a self promoted warlord), and when Leia sees him latter on Honogar, she doesn't recognize the species either.

Also, while Zeltron are not on the list of compatible species, it's highly likely that they are, based on the Legacy comics. Cade's main love interest is a Zeltron, and I can't see the Skywalker line dying out. (though I suppose the one night stand with Talon might have resulted in a child)
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Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
05.24.2013 , 04:00 AM | #209
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
And in the case where we can say someone much younger has been through more life experiences, packed more into those short years, like a child soldier, even if that's a cultural norm for them it's still kinda iffy, because it's potentially added onto psychological trauma and adding complications that someone that young doesn't need to deal with.
This "child soldier" thing that you keep bringing up bugs me. Child soldiers are human. They are not adults. Not mentally or physically. It has nothing to do with species where people are fully adults at younger ahe than humans. In those species, people don't get traumatized because they are not "kids forced to be adults", they are adults.


Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
But this raises a problem with the internal consistency of this rule. I brought up the issue of a reverse scenario where one species ages and physically matures slower, but perhaps gains emotionally maturity and memories at the same rate. Mentally that person could be an adult. Physically they would look very young. So, use the legal standards we've developed, even if they might appear underaged (problems)? Consider them not human and not subject to our standards (problems)? Consider them mature by mental maturity, or biological (problems)?
I'm afraid I can't agree with you in the fact that a species could be mentally mature when they aren't physically mature. It isn't only the fact that you have x amount of life experince. It's also your brain and how developed it is. If a species ages slower, i.e. they are adults at the age of 100, they are not "mentally adults" at the age of 18. They are children, and it's not okay to date a person from that species who is only 18, since their brain isn't developed enough.

I say it again, if 2 people who are clearly adults by their species' standards want to have a rellationship, "what if he/she was my species" shouldn't stop them. They have different amount of life experience, but they are mature enough to decide if that is a problem to them. Though, what you have to be careful for people who think they are mature, but really aren't. I once met (online) a 14-year-old girl who thought that it would be okay for her to date 24-year-old man. Well, it isn't okay. Because she isn't an adult even though she would think so.



Though I do agree that in the game, there shouldn't be people under the age of 18 to romance, since not everyone reads the SW lore & not everyone would understand that different species, even humanoids, might not age like humans age. Plus, even though you do know that the species doesn't age like humans, I personally could have troubles with "getting over" the age of that person. Might make me feel a little uncomfortable to romance someone who's under 18, even though I'd know they are fully mature and adult, because that's such a taboo in our society.
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Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.24.2013 , 09:27 AM | #210
Quote:
In those species, people don't get traumatized because they are not "kids forced to be adults", they are adults.
Do we know this? Granted, being a child is not necessarily exclusive to being traumatized, adults can be and are traumatized as well, but there's something unfortunate about that happening to a child, because they're someone who is so young. I can't really explain the logic behind that, but it seems like an accurate assessment.

A Chiss, who is ten, but looks twenty, going to war or being forced into it, kinda raises the same question.

Red Sith who are part of the Empire start training young, and do things that most of us would consider pretty adult and not appropriate for children. It is their culture, and their activities while young shape them into what they become. They do this, or they die. Biologically, they aren't mature at the time, but in the course of what they go through, do they become mentally mature early? Hard to say.

Quote:
I'm afraid I can't agree with you in the fact that a species could be mentally mature when they aren't physically mature. It isn't only the fact that you have x amount of life experince. It's also your brain and how developed it is.
Yes, hormones etc. The problem we're running into is that human children below a certain age probably aren't fully developed brainwise. But with other species, that seems to become subjective. Some species are depicted as naturally "wiser" and more "mature" than vanilla humans by human standards, even if they are younger (biologically and timewise) than the comparable human and might not have gone through changes that an older human has.

Chiss might mature faster than humans both biologically and mentally, but at their age of consent, based on their quick maturing, they could be at a disadvantage to a member of a different species.

Quote:
Plus, even though you do know that the species doesn't age like humans, I personally could have troubles with "getting over" the age of that person. Might make me feel a little uncomfortable to romance someone who's under 18, even though I'd know they are fully mature and adult, because that's such a taboo in our society.
This is fair. Perhaps this is the primary source of my reaction.