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Imbalances among Tanks


Teioh_White's Avatar


Teioh_White
02.24.2012 , 06:15 PM | #21
I actually think rage generation is part of the issue, due to fact we have, what, 12 skills in the Immortal tree dedicated to giving us more Rage? I don't see Sins and PT having so many abilites in a tanking tree dedicated to resource building.

And the fact we build rage as we get hit just sorta makes us even for the fact we don't passively build rage in between CD's.

Battilea's Avatar


Battilea
02.24.2012 , 06:50 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Actually you're the one whom is incorrect.
If you run the numbers on the two sets of stats the OP posted, the Jugg takes less damage than the Assassin, on average. And that's with the Assassin most likely having a +2% resist bonus from a 4 piece set, definitely having extra defense from a fortitude stim, and the Jugg packing a lot of accuracy. Although, personally, I think the assassin in question is a bit silly, one of those overly focused on hp. He could have better avoidance/mitigation than he does.

Basically, the OP undervalues the impact of his higher resists. That armor gap means he takes about 10% less damage from kinetic and energy.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
02.24.2012 , 07:10 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Battilea View Post
If you run the numbers on the two sets of stats the OP posted, the Jugg takes less damage than the Assassin, on average. And that's with the Assassin most likely having a +2% resist bonus from a 4 piece set, definitely having extra defense from a fortitude stim, and the Jugg packing a lot of accuracy. Although, personally, I think the assassin in question is a bit silly, one of those overly focused on hp. He could have better avoidance/mitigation than he does.

Basically, the OP undervalues the impact of his higher resists. That armor gap means he takes about 10% less damage from kinetic and energy.
Cept assassins can self heal and a Juggernaut as far as I know can't.

Caelrie's Avatar


Caelrie
02.24.2012 , 07:23 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Mustace View Post
It's not quite that. It's more the fact that playing a juggernaut tank in endgame doesn't seem viable. I'm in the progress of rerolling to an operative healer cause of these imbalances.
Geeze, you must like pain. I look forward to seeing your future post about how much operative healers suck compared to sorcs and mercs.

subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
02.24.2012 , 07:30 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Jedi Guardian Tanks, and Juggernaut tanks both have to build focus (and they have a focus generation handicap), so they actually do need to invest more in accuracy than a shadow tank needs to.
Unless you are terrible, you will build Rage just fine. Since Assassins MUST ALSO TAKE ACCURACY IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THREAT your energy mechanic is largely irrelevant. The raw mitigation difference is HUGELY in favor of Juggs, which is what is most important.

No matter what, a Jugg will take less damage than an Assassin, which means they are the better tank for progression. In addition, they are built to scale threat generation based on the damage being taken, while Assassins LOSE DR AS THE NUMBER OF ATTACKS IN A GIVEN PERIOD INCREASES. I can't help if you lack the skill to manage rage... you are being handed DR like candy, which is the most important stat for a tank

-

OH! I can predict what whine comes next: self heal. Our one long CD that heals for 10%, which is weak because it does not prevent the damage. Our other so called self-heal is RNG and does not heal for even 0.5% of our health, and does not scale properly, meaning we actually lose its non-utility as time goes on, whereas Juggs passive mitigation scales, causing your effective HP to increase dramatically with gear.


If people would stop trying to loltank like this is WOW and learn that tanking mechanics are quite different, they would have no problem playing Juggs in SWTOR.
subrosian
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subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
02.24.2012 , 07:34 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Cept assassins can self heal and a Juggernaut as far as I know can't.
Thats like trying to argue that a Sorcerer is a good tank because they can self-heal. Damage reduction determines effective health and survivability. Juggs have the highest on both AND currently scale the best with gear. Assassins rng self-heal does not scale and their long cd 10% is proc based AND provides no DR.
subrosian
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SkyAid's Avatar


SkyAid
02.25.2012 , 12:20 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
You're concerned about Juggs power level, so you're rolling Operative? /facepalm.

Assassins ARE NOT AOE TANKS. The misconceptions here are mind blowing. A Tankasin has 8 charges of Dark Ward every 12s which are consumed on being hit, That means if we AoE tank, we get railed. Ward gets consumed, and then we get gibbed. You cannot directly compare raw stats, the base mitigation of Tankasins is lower, and they do not have the same CDs that Juggs have.
QFT. We have 3 guild tanks - vanguard, guardian and shadow (all columi geared) and the shadow keeps complaining about this all the time. And as a healer, I definitely observe this. The shadow tank is harder to keep alive with multiple mobs. But his dps is around 10-15% better compared to the guardian tank.

If this game had a combat log, the OP's assertion on the best tank can be proven wrong quite quickly.
Orin Skyaid Hydian Way
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PhantomMalice's Avatar


PhantomMalice
02.25.2012 , 03:37 AM | #28
I am actually horrified by these kinds of post because it shows that people with mediocre understanding of their own class and absolutely little understanding of others can somehow get their hands on Rakata gear.

First of all like a few posters above me had mentioned, needing Accuracy for Rage/Focus generation is just pure wrong. In case OP hasn't noticed, which he should if he is what he claims, then he/she will noticed that the resource will be generated REGARDLESS if the skill actually produces damage. The only thing getting Accuracy as a tank is to GUARANTEE aggro generation for every GCD spent.

Shadows and Vanguards don't have resource problems? Clearly, the OP has no idea how resource works for those classes. Vanguards are far from the AOE tanks people make them out to be. IF a Vanguard actually does all their lolAOE moves, they will be out of ammo in 3-4 GCD and will be stuck doing Hammer Shot while the healer gets chewed to bits from healing aggro.

Shadows like Vanguards also needs to manage their Force carefully. Unlike Vanguards who have diminishing return on their ammo regen, the base rate of Force regeneration for Sith Inquisitors/Jedi Consulars is 8/s. So with One the Force talent, that is 10.4 force per sec or 15.6 per GCD. So if they start wantonly throwing out Slow Time, Force in Balance, Force Breach, Whirling Blow; that force bar will be empty in 4 secs flat.


Many people think "ZOMG VG/SHAD are so much better! Look at X, Y<Z!!!111shift+1" fail to understand that just because those classes have those abilities doesn't means they CAN use those abilities due to resource/CD constrain.

xJeTsTaRx's Avatar


xJeTsTaRx
02.25.2012 , 09:44 AM | #29
All i seen on the front page was "need accuracy to keep your rage up", you actually dont need that much accuracy to keep your rage up, hell even if 1 out of 10 hits misses you will still have plenty of rage. From my understanding of juggies you should get receiving rage for taking damage, also building threat from taking damage...

Heith's Avatar


Heith
02.25.2012 , 12:30 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by PhantomMalice View Post
I am actually horrified by these kinds of post because it shows that people with mediocre understanding of their own class and absolutely little understanding of others can somehow get their hands on Rakata gear.
i have rakata gear and i have trouble holding agro on single targets. i wipe us all the time. me and my buddys are total noobs and we have full rakata lol this isnt rocket science