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Imbalances among Tanks

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Imbalances among Tanks

SirRobin's Avatar


SirRobin
02.22.2012 , 08:12 AM | #11
Single-target threat is pretty good with Jug's but there are a lot of multi-mob pulls in this game and the Immortal spec Jug is ill equipped to manage them compared to the other two tank specs.

Sportiva's Avatar


Sportiva
02.22.2012 , 09:03 AM | #12
As a Guardian, I completely agree with the OP on the subject of AOE tanking. Our AOE taunt is pretty much useless except for pulling together melee trash mobs together to get AOE'd by DPS.

Once we use AOE taunt, we lose aggro right away because none of our AOE attacks generate enough threat. Quite frankly, if you try to switch targets among multiple mobs, our single-target attacks do not generate enough threat to pull aggro from a DPS. So that's not viable strategy either.

It's not a matter of being incapable of playing the class, but it really sucks to have to apologize to your group mate after every encounter because your class is lacking some fundamental abilities.

Also, you should have ability to recover if someone in you group makes a mistake (like hitting the CC or missing an interrupt). -- "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" -- If we are forced to leave our rotation, it becomes very difficult to get full aggro back. One mob is doable, more than one is nearly impossible.
Master Jaice Jenod Guardian | Velo Jenx Gunslinger | Master Gira Jenx Sage | Major Jaxen Jenod Vanguard
Saena Jenod Mercenary | Dulymus Jenod Operative | Darth Scoura Assassin | Darth Zetara Marauder

subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
02.22.2012 , 10:25 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Mustace View Post
It's not quite that. It's more the fact that playing a juggernaut tank in endgame doesn't seem viable. I'm in the progress of rerolling to an operative healer cause of these imbalances.
You're concerned about Juggs power level, so you're rolling Operative? /facepalm.

Assassins ARE NOT AOE TANKS. The misconceptions here are mind blowing. A Tankasin has 8 charges of Dark Ward every 12s which are consumed on being hit, That means if we AoE tank, we get railed. Ward gets consumed, and then we get gibbed. You cannot directly compare raw stats, the base mitigation of Tankasins is lower, and they do not have the same CDs that Juggs have.

Rage management is not the issue with Juggs - their issue is threat generation, however all Tanks can complete the content right now. The power difference between tanks is far, far smaller than the difference between healers or DPS, especially since no boss actually is designed to purely require tank cds.
subrosian
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Mustace's Avatar


Mustace
02.24.2012 , 01:16 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
You're concerned about Juggs power level, so you're rolling Operative? /facepalm.

Assassins ARE NOT AOE TANKS. The misconceptions here are mind blowing. A Tankasin has 8 charges of Dark Ward every 12s which are consumed on being hit, That means if we AoE tank, we get railed. Ward gets consumed, and then we get gibbed. You cannot directly compare raw stats, the base mitigation of Tankasins is lower, and they do not have the same CDs that Juggs have.

Rage management is not the issue with Juggs - their issue is threat generation, however all Tanks can complete the content right now. The power difference between tanks is far, far smaller than the difference between healers or DPS, especially since no boss actually is designed to purely require tank cds.
Even when you lose your 20% (assuming you aren't a complete noob and actually have the set bonus) the other assassin tanks in my guild still have way more mitigation (10% or so more shield chance and absorption)

Are you saying you can't hold threat on AoE pulls as an assassin? if a juggernaut has to tank 2 targets he will lose threat on one of them. Sure he can retaunt it. But then when we got to 3 theres not much to do cause of the AoE taunts long cooldown. The cooldowns you have as assassins aren't bad compared to ours. I compared a few days ago and ours have way longer cooldowns than yours making ours actual cooldowns. Yours are nearly spammable. With base mitigation I'm assuming you mean damage reduction. I give you that. It's a bit lower but still not low enough to justify you not needing to stat into accuracy like juggernauts do.

I don't think you read my thread thoroughly enough to understand what I'm actually saying though. Juggernaut tanks need accuracy because with out it we will miss our rage builders. Assassins don't face the same challenge. this means they're free to stack all of their secondary into pure mitigation. thats around 300 points more into defense rating or shield/absorp or even some endurance (which is not subject to diminishing returns)

subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
02.24.2012 , 02:30 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Mustace View Post
I don't think you read my thread thoroughly enough to understand what I'm actually saying though. Juggernaut tanks need accuracy because with out it we will miss our rage builders. Assassins don't face the same challenge. this means they're free to stack all of their secondary into pure mitigation. thats around 300 points more into defense rating or shield/absorp or even some endurance (which is not subject to diminishing returns)
I read your thread, you're simply wrong.

Assassins need Accuracy because threat-generation is out-stripped by DPS generation. Your DPS in T3 gear, assuming they're not bad, will pull off an Assassin who drops all of their Accuracy. Threat does not work the way it does in WoW, you don't "build it" and that's it - DPS can pull off at any point, and they will once they are in half T3 gear or better, assuming they don't suck.

Juggernauts have higher quality Damage Reduction CDs than Assassins. If the raw stats on Assassins were not higher, they would literally get trucked as their HP being at a lower point prior to incoming burst means they're dead. They don't have the same option of shrugging off a big hit the way a Juggernaut can, and they're spending more time actively maintaining *basic mitigation*, let alone DR.

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Your "argument" is based on the notion that Assassins can somehow have 0 Accuracy and wind up with "bonus" mitigation that Juggs don't have. This is simply *completely wrong*. In fact, Juggs get *better CDs* that Assassins don't have, they maintain their full DR against multiple targets (whereas a large pack causes all charges to be consumed on an Assassin, causing them to get trucked), AND when you reach actual progression where Assassins and Juggs both need Accuracy to hold threat, the Assassin winds up behind on DR.

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No, the primary problem that Juggs face is that most people who chose Tank chose a Jugg, and the majority of players trying to tank in SWTOR don't understand how *vastly different* tanking is than it is in WoW. I've watched fail-Tank after fail-Tank do everything from rotate Taunts (really... wish I was joking, WoW has ruined tanks) to pull with a Taunt to pop CDs on white hits. It's ridiculous. It got so bad that my guild moved me from Heals Officer to Tank Officer and had me reroll (been power leveling - not fun) because that was our best hope of putting competence behind the Tank.

In fact, the primary reason I chose Assassin over Juggernaut was the gearing. We put Sorcerers into our Healing spots, which means we gear them last (we don't use Sorc DPS heavily, as it's not the best and it will get nerfed) as healing is a linear function. We didn't want to put the main Tank on the same token as our Marauders, who form the core of our Melee DPS and are used for their CDs.

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The Jugg issue with threat generation is somewhat over-stated, it's the most played Tank, and therefore people blame the class, which is only partially true, and simply forget that threat is not easy-mode in SWTOR
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FalmeseReb's Avatar


FalmeseReb
02.24.2012 , 02:33 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Mustace View Post
It's not quite that. It's more the fact that playing a juggernaut tank in endgame doesn't seem viable. I'm in the progress of rerolling to an operative healer cause of these imbalances.
LOL, you will have the same issues there bud. Op healers are the juggernauts of the healing classes.

Sylriana's Avatar


Sylriana
02.24.2012 , 02:48 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Mustace View Post
It's not quite that. It's more the fact that playing a juggernaut tank in endgame doesn't seem viable. I'm in the progress of rerolling to an operative healer cause of these imbalances.
"I'm tired of being the worst tanking class in the game, so I'm going to go play the worst healing class in the game as a change of pace"


Also, disagree with the first part. Juggernauts are largely viable end game. The content is doable, the larger problem is that Assassins are a bit better than them, and Powertechs entirely outclass you.

That's not excusing it as a problem, but there's a difference between overall and general viability, and as long as you're posting lines like that, the thread will be flooded with people saying "But I cleared the content, you're just terrible", even though that has nothing to do with the actual topic.

subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
02.24.2012 , 03:01 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Sylriana View Post
But I cleared the content, you're just terrible", even though that has nothing to do with the actual topic.
Except that hasn't been the argument.

His LITERAL ARGUMENT is that Juggernauts must take Accuracy, while Assassins can have 0 accuracy and therefore have more mitigation (i.e. are better). This is COMPLETELY INCORRECT, as Juggernauts have more mitigation than Assassins by a margin that cannot be corrected with gear, period (due to CDs and how the Assassin's active mitigation functions against adds).

To make it worse, the premise is wrong, as Assassins in Nightmare mode with heavily geared DPS absolutely need some amount of accuracy, as Threat Generation does not scale well with defensive stats. In order to maintain threat with geared DPS bursting, the Assassin will need to be hitting enough to keep the boss at least enough that they do not outstrip their taunts.

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There are some minor issues with Juggs, but the majority of tanking issues in the game come down to people trying to play SWTOR as though it's WoW, when Tanking functions completely differently.

No one is arguing "Juggs clear Nightmare therefore you're bad". The argument is "you're looking at stats on the character screen as though raw stats are comparable, therefore you are wrong".
subrosian
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GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
02.24.2012 , 05:15 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
Except that hasn't been the argument.

His LITERAL ARGUMENT is that Juggernauts must take Accuracy, while Assassins can have 0 accuracy and therefore have more mitigation (i.e. are better). This is COMPLETELY INCORRECT, as Juggernauts have more mitigation than Assassins by a margin that cannot be corrected with gear, period (due to CDs and how the Assassin's active mitigation functions against adds).

To make it worse, the premise is wrong, as Assassins in Nightmare mode with heavily geared DPS absolutely need some amount of accuracy, as Threat Generation does not scale well with defensive stats. In order to maintain threat with geared DPS bursting, the Assassin will need to be hitting enough to keep the boss at least enough that they do not outstrip their taunts.

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There are some minor issues with Juggs, but the majority of tanking issues in the game come down to people trying to play SWTOR as though it's WoW, when Tanking functions completely differently.

No one is arguing "Juggs clear Nightmare therefore you're bad". The argument is "you're looking at stats on the character screen as though raw stats are comparable, therefore you are wrong".
Actually you're the one whom is incorrect.

Sure your basic attack is screwed up when you don't have the accuracy builders, problem with your argument is that all your other attacks aren't all that dependent on your basic attack.

Skill attacks start with 100% accuracy
Basic attacks start with 90% accuracy -- unlike you, a Juggernaut and a Guardian Tank, both need to have accuracy because they need to use said attack in conjunction with sundering strike to build/maintain focus/rage.

Since you start off with a full force bar while he starts off having to build focus/rage, and maintain focus/rage his ability to hit the target and thus get focus/rage with his basic attack becomes critical.

You are trying to approach this as though the two classes operate under the same set of mechanics when they quite frankly do not operate the same way.

Jedi Guardian Tanks, and Juggernaut tanks both have to build focus (and they have a focus generation handicap), so they actually do need to invest more in accuracy than a shadow tank needs to.

deathgodsinc's Avatar


deathgodsinc
02.24.2012 , 05:40 PM | #20
For those saying that accuracy is needed to help maintain focus/rage have you forgotten that a Jugg ACTUALLY spec'd immortal gains that simply by being attacked? I really don't think the rage generation is the issue for them. I'd love it if they had an additional AOE taunt, but they don't really need it. As has been mentioned above, agro doesn't work the same way in TOR than it does in games like LOTRO or WoW. Assin tanks may have more ways to taunt or gain area aggro, but their survivability is NOT the same as was also mentioned above.