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Tanks: Does Threat Seem Off To You?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tanks: Does Threat Seem Off To You?

Ansultares's Avatar


Ansultares
02.21.2012 , 09:48 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Dayfax View Post
I've heard that Guardians have the weakest AoE threat of any tanking class, so it's not just you.
Surely tied with juggernauts.

I've got a 50 jugg, but I'm currently rerolling a new one. At level 29, I'm having to remind people that I only have a single AOE, and its on a 15s cooldown.

Anyway, I found on my 50 that once I had the AOE taunt and sweeping strikes, it got much easier. Add in the various AOE improvements in a immortal build and it's not bad at all.

The real problem is that DPS itemization just scales so much faster than jugg/guard threat generation. It's laughable trying to hold agro against a tank companion with its 100% threat modifier and more easily spammed AOEs. Then you need to figure that every DPS is accustomed to DPSing against their tank companion, and it's no surprise they're overestimating the relatively gimped jugg/guard.

Rysa's Avatar


Rysa
02.21.2012 , 10:00 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by peaceandpassion View Post
With guardian i find it easy, jump in hit 1 mob, stasis 2nd, force push another kill 1st jump to 3rd (pushed) saber through 2nd. All this while i use force sweep and aoe agro taunt. and the single target taunt i use on a mob we are not hitting.
While this may work for Guardians, it doesn't for Juggernauts. Part of the reason being, a Mercenary will open up with Death From Above as soon as you're halfway through your jump. Even if a Commando does the same thing with Mortar Volley, you've still got a 2 second cushion, due to the delayed damage from MV vs DFA; 2 seconds vs. ~.5 seconds.

I see the problem overall as being twofold. One, as someone said earlier, WoW and other games have taught DPS that they do not ever need to wait to unload on something. Games since WoW have started off with a threat mechanic system that requires dps to wait at least a couple seconds before they unload, but they've reversed that because it's virtually impossible anymore to get dps to wait. Back in Vanilla/BC WoW, where threat was an issue, we didn't have raid markers, but we always used a Main Assist. That person was the one responsible for knowing the priority kill order, and dps were responsible for assisting that person to make sure they were attacking the correct target. We don't have that here. Everyone just tab targets to something and starts dpsing it. Instead of the tank needing to focus on keeping 1 mob off dps, and the rest just off the healers, there's multiple mobs being dpsd at the same time, even on non-aoe pulls, or pulls that shouldn't be considered aoe (2 elites, 3 strongs, 3-4 normals).

The second problem is the positioning and ability usage of mobs. There are far too many ranged mobs, that stand just out of tank aoe range, and tanks (for the most part) don't have a way to control them. I'm not sure about assassins because I haven't played one, but I do play a 50 Jugg and a 50 Powertech. If there's 3 mobs at range, there's no good way to deal with all 3 of them, even on the Powertech. Jugg can throw at one, charge to the other, and the third is out of range of everything. Powertech can charge to one, grapple the second, and the third is still loose. Tank aoe damage has a very small range, in addition to the fact it will not do damage if you're moving when you use it (we've tested this multiple times), Smash and Sweep from the Jugg and Flame Sweep from the Powertech.

I am of the school of thought that likes tanking to be a challenge, that threat is as much the tank's responsibility as the dpsers. Hitting 3 buttons and going afk as a tank, or mashing buttons as fast as you can as dps, to me, just isn't fun. At the same time, we lack the tools to be able to do that right now. I also don't think that the threat mechanic playing a major role in gaming is something that will ever come back. I think too many people will complain if it does, and it'll get nerfed into WotLK era again, because there's too many players who just want to see big numbers and, (currently perceived) "top dps", and to do that, dps has to be able to unload instantly and not worry about dying from pulling agro.

JLapp's Avatar


JLapp
02.21.2012 , 11:37 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rysa View Post
While this may work for Guardians, it doesn't for Juggernauts. Part of the reason being, a Mercenary will open up with Death From Above as soon as you're halfway through your jump. Even if a Commando does the same thing with Mortar Volley, you've still got a 2 second cushion, due to the delayed damage from MV vs DFA; 2 seconds vs. ~.5 seconds.
When I am on my commando, there really isn't much a tank can do to keep aggro on a group if I use my AOE abilities. 2 seconds doesn't matter much when in the first 5 seconds I can do 3-4 times the amount of group damage that the tank can. They pretty much have a couple seconds while MV is charging up and their AOE taunt to keep them...after that it will go after me unless I switched to single-target.

Tanks just don't do anywhere near the AOE damage that DPS can do. Which is fine...DPS just need to know the situations when they can use their AOE skills and when they need to single target.

peaceandpassion's Avatar


peaceandpassion
02.21.2012 , 12:13 PM | #24
Well from what has been passed around during beta, threat isnt mainly based on average dps. If a commando is spamming grav round and wonders why he keeps getting agro then im sorry i just let him die. In a rotation a smart dps will always include his de-agro skill and a 1 or 2 second break where he can loose agro and gain ammo.

The problem with dps in this game is not that there so good they take agro, its that they are so bad they do not see why ^^
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.21.2012 , 12:18 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelousWang View Post
Guardian/Juggernaut > holding threat on more than one target is hard.

Assassin/Shadow > keeping threat on bosses can be hard if the DPS get too spammy/over dpsing, but AOE is generally fine.

Powertech/Vanguard > holding threat is cake, has lots more (3 abilities more) AOE than Guard/Jugg, and comparable single target.
Guardian/Jugg AoE threat gen is actually slightly better than Assassin/Shadow: the two classes generate roughly the same amount of threat and Guardians/Juggs are actually about to sustain it for a longer period of time and for less activation time. It's close enough that player skill matters more than the class differences but, equal skill, Guardians will have marginally better AoE threat gen.

Assassin/Shadow ST threat gen is actually some of the best in the game. TK Throw hits like a truck, as does PA Project. I've got no clue where you're getting the "keeping threat is hard as a Shad/Sin" from. My main is a Shadow tank and I've never had problems keeping threat.

The big reason that most tanks have "problems" with threat is because a large number of bosses have prolific amounts of threat drops. The ST taunts in TOR are on 15 second CDs for good reason: a lot of the bosses expect you to use them about that often. Pretty much any time you're knocked back, expect it to be a threat drop. If the boss suddenly turns to attack someone else and it's not expected (ex: Soa ball lightning or mind trap), don't be afraid to use taunt; it'll be back up in 15 seconds. On bosses without any threat drops, no tank should have any threat problems outside of the first 10-15 seconds of a fight. Some people just aren't used to BW's love affair with threat drop mechanics.
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thorizdin's Avatar


thorizdin
02.21.2012 , 12:59 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

The big reason that most tanks have "problems" with threat is because a large number of bosses have prolific amounts of threat drops. The ST taunts in TOR are on 15 second CDs for good reason: a lot of the bosses expect you to use them about that often. Pretty much any time you're knocked back, expect it to be a threat drop. If the boss suddenly turns to attack someone else and it's not expected (ex: Soa ball lightning or mind trap), don't be afraid to use taunt; it'll be back up in 15 seconds. On bosses without any threat drops, no tank should have any threat problems outside of the first 10-15 seconds of a fight. Some people just aren't used to BW's love affair with threat drop mechanics.
This seems to be the root of the problem for most people trying to tank. They (probably because of mechanics in other games) don't expect to have to use taunt after the fight has been going for a couple of minutes and that simply doesn't work in SWTOR. Taunt, Intercede, Guard, and other threat management tools are critical.

cioran's Avatar


cioran
02.21.2012 , 01:45 PM | #27
Guardian is only useful in 1-1 boss tanking (extremely useful, I might add) and pvp (as a hybrid, though arguably not a tank, it's nasty). Fwiw, commandos and gunslingers are notorious for pulling aggro. Commandos can handle themselves, gunslingers are ragdolls.

AOE threat generation is utterly horrible. Vanguards are much better.

Level a guardian in pvp (Vig tree or hybrid). It's more fun. PVE is painful, IMO. Re-spec later if you want to tank.
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Dukibritches's Avatar


Dukibritches
02.21.2012 , 02:48 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by JustTed View Post
But with threat tuned this tight, and DPS classes with no threat dumps (I might be mistaken here), I find I occasionally lose threat on single targets too, but only with a crazy DPSer who started pounding on the mob the same second I did. Even then, I can hold it for a long while, but I know I need to have a finger hovering over that taunt key for use any second. Taunting doesn't seem like the emergency button it should be, but part of my tanking rotation.
Im almost positive that all DPS classes have a threat dump. I personally play assassin MT and have a Merc that is almost at 50. From my experience with leading raids and running with other classes almost all of them have threat dumps except maybe Powertech DPS. The examples I am thinking of: Assassin can Force Cloak to remove themselves from combat instantly wiping their threat and Mercenaries have Chaff Flare which reduces threat towards all targets. Force Cloak is a 3 minute CD, but Chaff Flare is only 45 sec CD. Since it costs no heat I recommend all mercenaries use it in their rotation. I have been told that Imperial Agents have a similar ability and I know Marauders have something as well. I havent covered every DPS class, but they probably also have aggro dumps.

From a tank perspective regarding threat, yes it can be a pain in the ***. I like the current system though, I enjoy having to work hard to hold aggro on my targets. Even if threat was a bit more lenient almost all bosses have some sort of aggro dump mechanics at certain stages of fights. With that said, keep in mind that it may not be DPS pulling off you, its possible the mob just reset aggro because they reached a certain stage of the fight or used a certain ability etc.

Battilea's Avatar


Battilea
02.21.2012 , 04:24 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Guardian/Jugg AoE threat gen is actually slightly better than Assassin/Shadow: the two classes generate roughly the same amount of threat and Guardians/Juggs are actually about to sustain it for a longer period of time and for less activation time. It's close enough that player skill matters more than the class differences but, equal skill, Guardians will have marginally better AoE threat gen.
The problem isn't the threat generated on what you hit, but rather, on what you hit. It is a geometry issue, the A in AoE. Smash hits hard, but I hit more things more often with Wither and Discharge. And what you don't hit, you don't gain lots of aggro on. In a game with lots of mobs content to stand still and shoot from where they are, that matters.

Doesn't hurt either that Assassins have a bit better package to support it all. They can reach out and AoE taunt, while the Jugg's is self centered. They've got Overload, on a 20s cooldown, and Force Pull, on a 45s one, to help gather mobs. Wither has a bit of range. It slows down targets, buying a bit more time. I can be in one group and AoE taunt at range a second group. And so on.

I play both and when it comes to AoE support, the Assassin just has the better tools.

Quote:
Assassin/Shadow ST threat gen is actually some of the best in the game. TK Throw hits like a truck, as does PA Project. I've got no clue where you're getting the "keeping threat is hard as a Shad/Sin" from. My main is a Shadow tank and I've never had problems keeping threat.
Yup, single target threat is good. About the only things that can pull threat from me are mauraders and pyro BHs and, from playing a pyro BH, I can assure you that that isn't an assassin issue.

Anyway, I like the aggro mechanics in this game. A bit of work/skill in tanking is a good thing, as is DPS actually having to improve their game.

thorizdin's Avatar


thorizdin
02.21.2012 , 04:38 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by cioran View Post
AOE threat generation is utterly horrible.
I've asked this question more than once and never gotten any real responses, when is AoE threat worth anything in this game? Any tank needs to hold aggro on a group for about 10 seconds MAX for end game content. If you're dying to trash then tank aggro isn't your problem.