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An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

jingadingdangdo's Avatar


jingadingdangdo
02.19.2012 , 11:03 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by eNcFireWraith View Post
I'm just hoping the second tier of content is harder comparatively (i.e. it isn't cleared in the first night). It seems to be the trend in most MMOs.
I agree totally. The communication we've had from the developers thus far doesn't make me very optimistic that there will be any relative increase in difficulty though.
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Yescek's Avatar


Yescek
02.19.2012 , 11:15 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by jingadingdangdo View Post
I agree totally. The communication we've had from the developers thus far doesn't make me very optimistic that there will be any relative increase in difficulty though.
That'd be the ticket wouldn't it? I'm of the opinion that, seeing as this is Bioware's first shot at this sort of a product, the communication will improve over time. Say what you will about capitol investment or what have you, I think they're gonna need to learn that lesson the hard way if they're not already at least thinking about it.

El_Chino's Avatar


El_Chino
02.19.2012 , 11:21 AM | #23
So what is is that hardcore raiders want?

Higher Challenge or Top Loot?

"Hardcore Raiding" shouldn't reward anything more than a feeling of accomplishment from getting the content itself done. Nothing Extra. There should not be any "Risk vs Reward" factor. You either do the raids on hard mode because you like to or you don't.

If your argument is that there is no incentive to do so, than the want for challenge in raiding is not enough to outweigh the lust for loot and exclusivity.

Vanity items are a decent bridge here. Nothing so much stat-wise, but something that gives a title or completing it would be more in line with a reasonable system.

Face it... EQ is a model that will never get as many subscribers as one that is way more accessible. If you want "Epic Raidz" go back to EQ and wait for days to camp a spawn you need 72 people to ace. Those kind of "hardcore" raids perpetuate the stereotype that MMO's are for clammy, basement dwelling trolls.

The only way to break that would be to change the model so drastically that anyone can be a part of it, not just those with a lot of time on their hands, which is where MMO Design is going.

It's no longer about how to challenge a player, it's about how to retain players. You don't do that by putting massive roadblocks in the way of your basest of players who will remain loyal even if you poke them in the eyes repeatedly. Everyone wants to be the hero and try to be the best. Open accessibility is the way to create that illusion.


Another take: Ever since video games became more "art" than "game" the artist wants the participant (player) to experience it as a whole, because if they do not, the art's effect is lost. Just food for thought.

Apologies for the abrasive nature of some of this, but the hardcore model is a dinosaur. You only need to look as far as the number of people who play Farmville to see that. Woe to us as gamers when the day comes that Farmville is the only alternative, but it is definitely where it is going.

matmert's Avatar


matmert
02.19.2012 , 11:21 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by silverprovidence View Post
I'm not a pvp player . As such considering your whole refutation was based on my being an 'ignorant pvp player who hasnt stepped into pve content' pretty much just invalidates your entire counterargument.

Though I do find pvp more enjoyable in TOR than most other MMOs...
sorry but i dont understand how you can be pve player and dont accept that the game is not ready

i like both pvp and pve now i gone tell you some bugs

1. kill last boss in any flash point and die in same time or just one person in party die and missclick and resurrect out of instance he cant get drop

2. in most of flashpoints players dont need to use any kind of crowd control because items overhelm that and most of people see crowd control as waste of time

3. in most of flash points and operations the first boss is the hardest one why?

4. kaon bonus boss can be pulled and can be killed without druids

5. kaon torret phase can be avoided players can go and some or something

6. pvp how dps e got 2.5k heal 5k heal 75k heal medals there is one pot wich give %50 and is count as healing some of meele dpses get 11 - 15 medals *** !!!!

7. we have 8 type of characters why in most of them 1 talent tree is complete useless = because of game mechanics is not let you play that tlanet tree is not calculated as it should be

7. why i can kill full champion concelment operative with my centrious powertech as pyrotech ? what a balance

8. why in pvp healers after get they are champions cant be killed by 2 peoples and is needed third person with champion ? = because when you interrupt its stop just that heal not they family skills of that skill

9. omg i used my break free why im cced again with same seconds omg that sage or inquistor put me to whirlwind for 20 sec after i was stunned just sec ago

10. my operative still has 2 class quests wich i finished 3 times already and cotinue to 50 now im 50 and i cant delete thos 2 class quests they stuck one me i spend 4 hours to find what is cause about that quest problem and how its proccess and then open ticked

dudeeee i can continue with this kind of bugs and issuses just accept it yes swtor is a game wich give a hope but is not ready not at that point

and im not arguing with you i just want to see this game in the best place and thats why im write thing and send tickets im not simply QQ maybe im aggressive but in every my post and every my ticked i explain what is my problem and what is cause it

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.19.2012 , 11:33 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by matmert View Post
sorry but i dont understand how you can be pve player and dont accept that the game is not ready
I never said the game was ready or working well. My original post was condemning the hypocricy of the 'anti-raiders' on this forum who publicly go for a 'live and let live' approach while at the same time spitting the kind of venom I'd expect if we were shooting each other.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

matmert's Avatar


matmert
02.19.2012 , 11:36 AM | #26
btw i forgot place is not here but also the crew skills they are complete nearly useless for earn money and you dont put any effort to level them most of good items is bop and peoples earn money just beacuse most of peoples dont know game very much after lvl 50 you dont need to buy any of 49 - 50 purples simply goto pvp 1 day got you centrious pvp and you ready for any hm flashpoint your 500 600k credit is in your poket also i tanked full ev with centrious and half of karagga's place but nvm is our subject is not that

matmert's Avatar


matmert
02.19.2012 , 11:40 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by silverprovidence View Post
I never said the game was ready or working well. My original post was condemning the hypocricy of the 'anti-raiders' on this forum who publicly go for a 'live and let live' approach while at the same time spitting the kind of venom I'd expect if we were shooting each other.
sorry my english is not very good

i see you arguing with poster of that thread and he is try to get attention for next generation updates and give some ideas and when you arguing with him i thinked your dont accept that the game have many issues

thats why i started the whole thing sorry

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.19.2012 , 11:42 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by El_Chino View Post
So what is is that hardcore raiders want?

Higher Challenge or Top Loot?
Bit of both. The highest difficulty should reward slightly better gear. This is because there should be some benefit to doing the higher tier difficulty stuff if its a bit of a grind rather than basically being able to get everything you need for progression on the easiest difficulty several times faster.

The gap should be small, simply because:

a) Provides an unbalancing effect on other elements of gameplay that will need to be counterbalanced in their arena (eg pvp gear for a start).

b) If you make the gap too large it has too much of an effect on content where 'outgearing' becomes a huge weight to consider. This is acceptable when you have single difficulty content (more skilled playesr clear it in lesser gear, les skilled players will eventually accumulate the gear on the earlier bosses to allow them to eventually surmount those previously unachieveable challenges).

However when you have multiple difficulties that large gap is harder to justify as it can devalue the achievements of people by making it less skill based (which arguably multiple difficulties should allow the game to be more tightly tuned around skill based as people who cant do the content should just be content at their skill level).

Plus there should be some scope to let people 'step up' difficulties if they so choose, but keeping the gear gap small stops it being silly ala wow. If its small then if do T1 nightmare, the gear from T2 hard should be the equal to T1 nightmare so that people who did T1 nightmare can go straight to T2 nightmare. Likewise if people wanted to move from doing T1 hard to the nightmare they dont have to grind mutliple difficulties across multiple different tiers.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.19.2012 , 11:42 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by matmert View Post
sorry my english is not very good

i see you arguing with poster of that thread and he is try to get attention for next generation updates and give some ideas and when you arguing with him i thinked your dont accept that the game have many issues

thats why i started the whole thing sorry
It happens ^^
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

matmert's Avatar


matmert
02.19.2012 , 11:49 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by El_Chino View Post
So what is is that hardcore raiders want?

Higher Challenge or Top Loot?

"Hardcore Raiding" shouldn't reward anything more than a feeling of accomplishment from getting the content itself done. Nothing Extra. There should not be any "Risk vs Reward" factor. You either do the raids on hard mode because you like to or you don't.

If your argument is that there is no incentive to do so, than the want for challenge in raiding is not enough to outweigh the lust for loot and exclusivity.

Vanity items are a decent bridge here. Nothing so much stat-wise, but something that gives a title or completing it would be more in line with a reasonable system.

Face it... EQ is a model that will never get as many subscribers as one that is way more accessible. If you want "Epic Raidz" go back to EQ and wait for days to camp a spawn you need 72 people to ace. Those kind of "hardcore" raids perpetuate the stereotype that MMO's are for clammy, basement dwelling trolls.

The only way to break that would be to change the model so drastically that anyone can be a part of it, not just those with a lot of time on their hands, which is where MMO Design is going.

It's no longer about how to challenge a player, it's about how to retain players. You don't do that by putting massive roadblocks in the way of your basest of players who will remain loyal even if you poke them in the eyes repeatedly. Everyone wants to be the hero and try to be the best. Open accessibility is the way to create that illusion.


Another take: Ever since video games became more "art" than "game" the artist wants the participant (player) to experience it as a whole, because if they do not, the art's effect is lost. Just food for thought.

Apologies for the abrasive nature of some of this, but the hardcore model is a dinosaur. You only need to look as far as the number of people who play Farmville to see that. Woe to us as gamers when the day comes that Farmville is the only alternative, but it is definitely where it is going.

yeah your right and your not

im a hard core player for a moment but im not a hard core raider but i like raids and when my guild is doing raid im join with them but is boring wich i mentionet before and want to get attention to it more challeng is not meaning just buff up hp and demage i prefere if they where add one more phase on hard mode to every boss and two more phase on night mare bosses with that it will be more harder and more fun for player who can sped more time in game its an option thos who dont have time go to normal thos who have time go to other i personally dont care about loot but peoples kill bosses with loot so i also need it