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An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

Lindos's Avatar


Lindos
02.22.2012 , 09:33 AM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanana View Post
If all you wanted was challenge and prestige, you'd be happy with titles. But no, you want a) better gear and b) to make sure the people with less time don't get the same gear.

That makes you poison for a game that's not focused on a few no-lifers.
Unfortunately, even the title timed runs are very easy, having been one-shotted by many guilds.
10/10 16m NMM
lindos@gmx.com

alifaraaz's Avatar


alifaraaz
02.22.2012 , 09:33 AM | #112
Agree. There's three dificulties for a reason, they should be miles apart and offer different rewards. Personally i wouldnt be bothered if the rewards eg loot were better - id be happy with fancy titles and speeders etc.

However everythign in life you are rewarded based on performance. Nightmare mode should be stupidly hard and have nice things for those who complete it.

Hard should be a solid challenge for most guilds but do-able after weeks of trying for casual players, and a nice challenge for uber hardcore.

Normal should be easy enough for everyone to complete eventually, so nobody's missing on on content techinically.

Lance_Dunsten's Avatar


Lance_Dunsten
02.22.2012 , 09:38 AM | #113
Agree with the OP.

Raids content should be made more difficult. It should provide a sense of achievement for the time and effort required to get them. Having three tiers of diffculty, BW should made a distinct change in difficulty.

As for the reward system, I do have a different opinion.

Gear should have some distinct advantage in different scenarios (PVE raiding contents and PVP).

Expertise increase the effectiveness for PVP, could a similar stat be added to awarded for PVE raid contents gear, where these gears increase the effectiveness in higher difficulties such as HM and NMM instances.

For the casual, they could still experience the content in Normal mode, with similar stats. Where as raiders, we would not seems to be some sort of elitist that show we could demolish world mobs more effective than them.

The gear obtained in HM would effectively tier us to take on higher content (providing a constant gear chase to take on insane challenges where time and dedicate is required).

In summary, I am asking for an additional stat to be added on PVE raid content gears to tackle higher difficulty without increasing the ability to differentiate the causals and hardcore raiders in world encounters.

Kanana's Avatar


Kanana
02.22.2012 , 09:45 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by alifaraaz View Post
However everythign in life you are rewarded based on performance. Nightmare mode should be stupidly hard and have nice things for those who complete it.

Hard should be a solid challenge for most guilds but do-able after weeks of trying for casual players, and a nice challenge for uber hardcore.

Normal should be easy enough for everyone to complete eventually, so nobody's missing on on content techinically.
Want work? Get a job. This is a game, not life. It should not exclude people who already work for a living and simply want to enjoy a game.

Takachsin's Avatar


Takachsin
02.22.2012 , 09:56 AM | #115
Nice post OP. Well thought out and said. I used to be a hardcore raider 5 nights a week and have since gone to a more relaxed raiding with my friends 2 nights a week which I enjoy.

For those of you complaining about OP wanting to be superior because they can devote more time to it you are wrong. That is the whole point of the multiple difficulties. It allows for your play style to come through. Just want to experience the content? Run normal. Want to devote long hours a week and struggle and finally beat the hardest fights? Run nightmare. That is the point of this system, and it should reward those who spend more time on it. Having two difficulties drop the same gear doesn't make sense. It doesn't directly affect you aside from I NEED THE BEST GEAR I HAS TO HAVE IT!!! Get over it you should be having fun whether you are getting gear or not otherwise you are wasting your time.

Personally though I have never liked the idea of different "difficulty switches" you turn on or off. The only system I liked was Ulduar when the hard modes were done by fighting the boss a different way. As OP said increased difficulty should not just equate to more damage and more health. If it were my choice, I would release one difficulty and then have it made easier once the new content was out. It always keeps you one step behind if you are more casual but it still lets you experience everything.

We all have the nostalgia from our own "greatest" raids, but I truly miss having separate raids (etc 8 and 16 are different raids) or raids on short lockouts (ZA timed runs). It lets you have variety and is more fun imo. (I know you can just say run EV 16 and run KP 8, problem solved, but its not the same.)

I have my own share of complaints and frustration with bugs but I ask myself I am being greedy? We always want more stuff and then aren't happy with what we get. I can see this game becoming great after 5 years of fixes and new features, but should we wait that long? For now I will keep playing and having fun.
Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane. - Philip K. Dick

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.22.2012 , 10:21 AM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanana View Post
Want work? Get a job. This is a game, not life. It should not exclude people who already work for a living and simply want to enjoy a game.
Yes it is a game. But in case you hadnt noticed there are myriad examples of games that have things behind a hard difficulty and they arent all MMOs. Games are activities that are pursued. The 'this game woudl be a job' argument doesnt hold water.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.22.2012 , 10:30 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by Takachsin View Post
Nice post OP. Well thought out and said. I used to be a hardcore raider 5 nights a week and have since gone to a more relaxed raiding with my friends 2 nights a week which I enjoy.

For those of you complaining about OP wanting to be superior because they can devote more time to it you are wrong. That is the whole point of the multiple difficulties. It allows for your play style to come through. Just want to experience the content? Run normal. Want to devote long hours a week and struggle and finally beat the hardest fights? Run nightmare. That is the point of this system, and it should reward those who spend more time on it. Having two difficulties drop the same gear doesn't make sense. It doesn't directly affect you aside from I NEED THE BEST GEAR I HAS TO HAVE IT!!! Get over it you should be having fun whether you are getting gear or not otherwise you are wasting your time.

Personally though I have never liked the idea of different "difficulty switches" you turn on or off. The only system I liked was Ulduar when the hard modes were done by fighting the boss a different way. As OP said increased difficulty should not just equate to more damage and more health. If it were my choice, I would release one difficulty and then have it made easier once the new content was out. It always keeps you one step behind if you are more casual but it still lets you experience everything.

We all have the nostalgia from our own "greatest" raids, but I truly miss having separate raids (etc 8 and 16 are different raids) or raids on short lockouts (ZA timed runs). It lets you have variety and is more fun imo. (I know you can just say run EV 16 and run KP 8, problem solved, but its not the same.)

I have my own share of complaints and frustration with bugs but I ask myself I am being greedy? We always want more stuff and then aren't happy with what we get. I can see this game becoming great after 5 years of fixes and new features, but should we wait that long? For now I will keep playing and having fun.
I miss it when content was just content to. Made it fee like part of the world. Now with difficulties just kind of feels like they're designed to make you regrind on several different levels rather than (as per the design) letting people play on the skillset threshold they want.

Especially agree on the gear thing, noone says it has to be huge gear differences (that would exacerbate gear inflation stupidly so) but just so that the reward basis is scaled with what your doing. Exactly the same principle as levelling quests at the appropriate level vs grey quests.

As for one difficulty, as I stated I would prefer that to, but the only real argument against it I found myself somewhat agreeing with is if you want an accessible endgame on that front you have to have huge gear gaps to make it workable. More skilled players do it in lesser gear, other players gear up to eventually overcome it. Over tiers that would become pretty huge and contributes to the mechanisms such as in WOW where content is purposely made irrelevent. If TOR could do difficulties with minor gear differences (where T1 nightmare gear is no worse than T2 hard) I think it could be kept more cohesive and less grindy by letting people catch up viably on other difficulties while keeping it all relevent.

I think its sad that just because the topic is 'raiding' you have all these people coming out of the woodwork with useless stereotypes to demean any legitimate criticism. Apparently if you raid your a 15 year old in their parents basement who plays 20 hours a day. It'd be a laughable argument if it wasnt used so widely. Kind of offensive considering the argument that for any decently challenging content the implicit view is that for these 'casual 99%' are too moronic to attempt it. Thats the truly offensive thing in my view, the view that most of the playerbase is idiots and alien to engaging gameplay.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

Takachsin's Avatar


Takachsin
02.22.2012 , 10:48 AM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by silverprovidence View Post
As for one difficulty, as I stated I would prefer that to, but the only real argument against it I found myself somewhat agreeing with is if you want an accessible endgame on that front you have to have huge gear gaps to make it workable. More skilled players do it in lesser gear, other players gear up to eventually overcome it. Over tiers that would become pretty huge and contributes to the mechanisms such as in WOW where content is purposely made irrelevent. If TOR could do difficulties with minor gear differences (where T1 nightmare gear is no worse than T2 hard) I think it could be kept more cohesive and less grindy by letting people catch up viably on other difficulties while keeping it all relevent.

I think its sad that just because the topic is 'raiding' you have all these people coming out of the woodwork with useless stereotypes to demean any legitimate criticism. Apparently if you raid your a 15 year old in their parents basement who plays 20 hours a day. It'd be a laughable argument if it wasnt used so widely. Kind of offensive considering the argument that for any decently challenging content the implicit view is that for these 'casual 99%' are too moronic to attempt it. Thats the truly offensive thing in my view, the view that most of the playerbase is idiots and alien to engaging gameplay.
Yeah, I think the increased mechanics over health for difficulties settings would make it so they could implement small gear gaps. I also hate the stereotype that the player base is generally stupid, but sadly I think it has become that way but only because new players are being taught easy ways without explaining everything and then they come to expect it. So I guess making the game more accessible to casual players is creating more casual players.

Side note: These time stamps make no sense
Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane. - Philip K. Dick

Slugamaniac's Avatar


Slugamaniac
02.22.2012 , 11:17 AM | #119
Very nice post OP. I hope to do some HM's soon (raiding wise) and being a former hardcore raider from WoW it is very easy to identify all points in your post. Let's hope BW actually starts to listen to what players are saying.
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Bloodymoon's Avatar


Bloodymoon
02.22.2012 , 12:39 PM | #120
Kanana, you are quite offensive. Labeling hardcore gamers as no-lifers, teenagers, etc. is at best trolling and at worst an insult.

Our guild is under the top 10 - 15 world, top 5 eu. Yet we do not have a single person you are describing - all of us are working or studying, the age is 24 in average.

Personally, I am 26 years old and work at least 40 hours a week and party much on the weekends. We currently need 1-2 days for 10/10 NM 16 man and do maximal raid 4 days a 4 hours in progress.

We are aware that not everybody can or want to raid 4x times a week , but we can afford to be present at 3 of those 4 days in progress times.

Please take that to heart and overthink your prejudice of hardcore gamers.
aka Moon