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An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

Kanana's Avatar


Kanana
02.22.2012 , 08:12 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Uruare View Post
Not to bash on anyone, but it's interesting to me to see it point-blank stated that if the best gear doesn't come out of the hardest raid difficulties, people will blow them off as a waste of time.

This in contrast to the oft-stated position of many that they want the challenge.
I'd be direly interested in finding out just how many dedicated raiders actually -are- interested in the challenge, and would pursue heightened difficulty even if the rewards weren't escalated for it, in contrast to those that use such as a smokescreen.
The drivel about wanting a challenge is just a smokescreen - those kind of players are not happy unless there's content only they can do with rewards only they can get. If everyone can get it they are not interested, no matter how challenging it is.

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.22.2012 , 08:15 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanana View Post
The drivel about wanting a challenge is just a smokescreen - those kind of players are not happy unless there's content only they can do with rewards only they can get. If everyone can get it they are not interested, no matter how challenging it is.
It reduces levels of engagement. If you do harder content with the same reward basis that you could get from doing it at a much easier level with less time investment there is definitely a decrease in satisfaction. Like levelling, the drive to hit the next level makes doing the bonus quests killing dozens of enemies add something with the weighty xp reward. At max level with the reduced incentive (only a small amount of legacy xp) that satisfaction goes down. They all contribute to layers of engagement. If you strip them away then damn right as a retention mechanism its effectiveness decreases. P

eople do weigh things. Most people while levelling will not go back and do grey bonus series they may have missed even if it was group stuff and would still present a challenge. Because their level of satisfaction would go down with not getting any worthwhile xp or potential gear rewards that contribute to their progression. Its the same thing.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

Talmasci's Avatar


Talmasci
02.22.2012 , 08:16 AM | #103
I've gotta say on the note that there shouldn't be gear that only players who raid a lot can get seems a bit simple for my liking. I enjoyed in WoW when i would see a player with gear better than me because that guild had managed a Raid that my guild hadn't even started yet.

It furthermore made me want to do these raids and push myself to be a better player so i could get this gear and hopefully actually have better gear than that player. I think thats what kept Wow alive so long for me was actually wanting to build my character up and not have it easy mode through out and just get bored of it instantly like i did in cata.

Id rather not compare this to wow but its the only other MMO i have played so its gonna have to do. I agree Nightmare mode should be a very big challenge i love a challenging fight especially when it makes everyone work there hardest to earn what they want i think that will keep the game alive more than just having everyone cruise through it with ease.

I think what the OP is trying to say is that yes casual players should be able to do Normal Mode and have a bit of a challenge with Hard Mode but Nightmare mode should be tuned to Hardcore raiding. I myself would love to see these changes implemented.

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.22.2012 , 08:22 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Talmasci View Post
I've gotta say on the note that there shouldn't be gear that only players who raid a lot can get seems a bit simple for my liking. I enjoyed in WoW when i would see a player with gear better than me because that guild had managed a Raid that my guild hadn't even started yet
Aye just on that note I remember TBC. It was silly how good a driving force attunements were. Even unlocking one boss felt like something and with more or less all the content in a couple months in the drive to actually go for content rather than dips of cleared content-farm-clear-contet-farm was the best time i ever had. Even if there was a big eight month gap between content there was satisfaction because the pursuit was there.

Definitely a restrictive model fro a modern MMO, if they did stuff like attunements in TOR the legacy system would be a good way to share them across characters (while keeping them in to do for story reasons if the player wanted). Everything is shifting to an 'equal access' thing in MMOs now. On paper a good thing... but its stripping away the plateus and the uphill travel that drives RPG gameplay. When RPGs becomes flat is the day they cease to be RPGs.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

Suntar's Avatar


Suntar
02.22.2012 , 08:43 AM | #105
I am no longer in a postion to hardcore raid, family etc means it is all very much casual but becuase I have been a hardcore player in the past and am casual now i can see this sitiuation from both sides.

I agree with 99% of the Op comments but it doesn't surprise me lots of the replies have taken an agressive stance that top tear loot should be only marginally better than the easy to attain stuff. It could be taken as a very basic I dont want other people to have better than me regardless of if they are prepared to work harder.

In reality the only place this is an issue is with player in raid gear having an unfair advantage in PVP and that should be solvable by the proper implementation of expertise.

The really should be more of a gear spread at lvl 50, the dailies provide in 3-4 days a full set of gear that is equal to all the drops in hard mode FP except the columni peice from the last boss and all the none columni peices in normal ops, - that probably wasn't a good idea.

only 1 gear set for HM and NM ops and tionese =126, comuni = 136 Rakata 140 i feel columni should be 146 and there should be a t4 at 156.

Lindos's Avatar


Lindos
02.22.2012 , 08:59 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanana View Post
The drivel about wanting a challenge is just a smokescreen - those kind of players are not happy unless there's content only they can do with rewards only they can get. If everyone can get it they are not interested, no matter how challenging it is.
I'm afraid that's a fallacy (circular reasoning). If the content is challenging, then almost by definition not everyone can surpass it. Just thought it amusing.
10/10 16m NMM
lindos@gmx.com

Kanana's Avatar


Kanana
02.22.2012 , 09:04 AM | #107
The harder you make it for players to gear up, the less players you have and retain, and the less new players you get. That's especailly true if hardcore nolifers are not your target audience to start with.

This is not EQ1. This game is targetted at casual players, not people who spend 40 hours a week raiding.

Narcistic's Avatar


Narcistic
02.22.2012 , 09:04 AM | #108
So you want to make 16man Nightmare harder then 8man Nightmare? As it stands we will consider Normal mode Damage a 1, Hard mode Damage a 2, Nightmare Damage a 3. And the reason for this is because the gear is the same so the damage for 16man Nightmare cannot exceed that of 8man Nightmare and vice versa.

SOA

As it stands now:

8Man Group - 1 MT/1 OT // 4 DPS // 2 Healers

Phase 1 Ground- Lightning Casts.
Phase 2 Platforming- Nothing Special.
Phase 3 Ground- 1 Mindtrap, 1 Person being flung, 2 Orbs.
Phase 4 Platforming- Nothing Special.
Phase 5 Ground- 1 Mindtrap, 2 Orbs.

Damage Level: 3

Soa Health Pool(Estimated/Rounded): 1,100,000 HP.
Mind Trap Health Pool: 25,000 HP.

Let's say the Tank/OT's damage is not counted and your relying on DPS solely for the damage output variables, each DPS has to put out 275,000 damage minimum if each carried their own weight.

In Phase 3, 3 people out of the 8 people in the raid are breaking orbs, being thrown, mind trapped.

In Phase 5, 3 people out of your 8 people are breaking orbs (DPS loss on boss during shield phase), in a mind trap (if your group didn't get it down in time or switch for shield phase).

In truth the only person you can lose and afford the death is your OT. And even then in Phase 5 if your MT gets yanked by a Mind Trap, Game Over try again. In reality losing 1-2 people for most guilds is a wipe and start over.


SOA

As it stands now:

16Man Group: 1 MT/1 OT // 10 DPS // 4 Healers

Phase 1 Ground- Lightning Casts.
Phase 2 Platforming- Nothing Special.
Phase 3 Ground- 1 Mindtrap, 1 Person being flung, 3 Orbs.
Phase 4 Platforming- Nothing Special.
Phase 5 Ground- 1 Mindtrap, 2 Orbs.

Damage Level: 3

As you can see above there is only 1 mechanic that changes.

Soa Health Pool(Estimated/Rounded): 2,080,000 HP.
Mind Trap Health Pool: 25,000 HP.

Let's say the Tank/OT's damage is not counted and your relying on DPS solely for the damage output variables, each DPS has to put out 208,000 damage minimum if each carried their own weight.

In Phase 3, 4 people out of the 16 people in the raid are breaking orbs, being thrown, mind trapped.

In Phase 5, 3 people out of your 16 people are breaking orbs (DPS loss on boss during shield phase), in a mind trap (if your group didn't get it down in time or switch for shield phase).

In truth you could lose 2 DPS (8/10 DPS left) at the very beginning of the fight and each DPS would then only have to put out 260,000 still 15,000 shy of an 8man raid comp. So even with doubled the DPS you are still only putting out 260,000 per DPS compared to an 8man of 275,000 per DPS. You still have double the healers despite the damage level remaining a solid 3 same as 8man. I have seen guilds down 16man nightmare soa with only 6-7 people left alive. That would equate out to a 8man guild being able to down nightmare soa final phase with only 4-5 people alive.



How to change this to make 16man as difficult or more difficult then 8man:

1.)Soa 16 Nightmare Health pool would have to be: 2,750,000 HP.

To be harder then 8man he would need: 3,000,000 HP to 3,200,000 HP.

(2,750,000/10= 275,000 per DPS. Same as 8man)

2.)Different gear.

Health pools for this fight would have to exceed 23k-24k for non tank characters and 25k-29k for tank characters. 4.5k Orb tick + Orb Explosion for 8k (Current) 12.5k + 4.5k Orb tick (to account for server/client lag) 17k(Current).

So you make it harder and scale it up with 16man. 5.5k Orb Tick + Orb Explosion for 10k= 15.5k + 5.5k (to account for server/client lag) 21k.

3.) More Mechanics. Instead of placing pools on the outside at phase 1. Maybe he wouldn't be in a static position and you'd have to kite and move your raid group. Maybe 2 Mind traps instead of 1. Or increase the health on the mindtraps to 75k and increase the time between mind traps. 4 balls in phase 3 and 3 in phase 5. 1 Ball in each corner of the room.


I know the usual answers to what I posted above "Yeah well you don't run 16man" or "The rooms the same size for 16man and 8man" Well your right, you are very much correct. But last I remember there is no clipping in this game so in reality you can all group up and stack and make your 16man as small as a 8man because you don't have to watch for any debuffs on you. Just have to watch for your name to be called and you move.

Anyways my 2 cents and to put things in perspective for people wanting 16man to be as hard or harder and to see how much work would have to be done.
Pretty Scary

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.22.2012 , 09:07 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanana View Post
The crowd of hardcore players - usually teenagers, it's mostly those who don't actually work for a living who drone about "you have to work hard" or "you have to earn" gear in a game - are too much of a drain on dev resources. But they are actally poison too. The harder you make it for players to gear up, the less players you have and retain, and the less new players you get. That's especailly true if hardcore nolifers are not your target audience to start with.

This is not EQ1. This game is targetted at casual players, not people who spend 40 hours a week raiding.
Hah. The ol' 'they must be teenagers... and they play like.... 20 hours a day man! I SPEAK FOR CASUALZ!' non-argument. Sad that people dont really have anything to say in response to legitimate criticisms aside from this tired fallacy.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

Kanana's Avatar


Kanana
02.22.2012 , 09:26 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by silverprovidence View Post
Hah. The ol' 'they must be teenagers... and they play like.... 20 hours a day man! I SPEAK FOR CASUALZ!' non-argument. Sad that people dont really have anything to say in response to legitimate criticisms aside from this tired fallacy.
If all you wanted was challenge and prestige, you'd be happy with titles. But no, you want a) better gear and b) to make sure the people with less time don't get the same gear.