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Why the multiple difficulty Operation model?


GetPloughed's Avatar


GetPloughed
02.18.2012 , 09:25 AM | #1
This is something I don't understand why BioWare would implement it. There is nothing positive from it. It causes raid burn out from the top guilds who have to kill each boss 3 times, and from other players there is no reason to continue raiding. When a boss is dead, it's dead, getting a few extra stats on gear is pointless. And again when you keep chasing that carrot for some extra stats, you again get burnt out.

One difficulty where bosses get harder as you go along is the raid model that is king. You ask any raider from WoW, what they're favourite time was and they'll say Burning Crusade. And it's not just nostalgia talking, it's real.

At least WoW started with a good raiding model before it came to it's current garbage, enough that they were able to suck players into it. Here's to hoping they fix this in the next Operations patch, but based on the last Q and A. I doubt it.

Sinemetu's Avatar


Sinemetu
02.18.2012 , 09:28 AM | #2
Yeah, BC was great. If you wanted to do harder content, you did different content. The problem was that a lot of people just weren't good enough for that harder content and never made it past Magtheridon's Lair or Gruul, and never got to see Hyjal or BT, much less Sunwell. In this model, everyone gets to see all the content. It's not a model I agree with, but I understand the logic.
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Kryogenique's Avatar


Kryogenique
02.18.2012 , 09:32 AM | #3
Wait, let me check....

Yep. www.swtor.com/....

It gives fresh lvl 50s a chance to get gear.
Stops the 'need gear to get gear' scenario.

Iwipe's Avatar


Iwipe
02.18.2012 , 09:47 AM | #4
Having content that only the top % of the hardcore raiders can access is a waste of development time and money - by having different diffculty modes - everyone has a chance to see the content if they want to - casuals and hardcore alike.

Also, you are incorrect when you say people will kill boss 3x times. Nightmare and hardmode share a lockout, so you can only kill 2x of the same bosses per week if they want to - want is keyword here. Guilds in nightmare/hardmode won't bother with normal anymore as most of the columi stuff that drops isn't an upgrade.

GetPloughed's Avatar


GetPloughed
02.18.2012 , 10:06 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Iwipe View Post
Having content that only the top % of the hardcore raiders can access is a waste of development time and money - by having different diffculty modes - everyone has a chance to see the content if they want to - casuals and hardcore alike.

Also, you are incorrect when you say people will kill boss 3x times. Nightmare and hardmode share a lockout, so you can only kill 2x of the same bosses per week if they want to - want is keyword here. Guilds in nightmare/hardmode won't bother with normal anymore as most of the columi stuff that drops isn't an upgrade.
That is the same mentality that has ruined raiding in WoW. This should be a new game, a different game. These "casual" raiders that have brought down WoW to the level it's at, they're not playing SWTOR. Why should BioWare cater to people who aren't even playing their game? Seems like they do that in all their other games, so not a surprise I guess.

And I didn't mean 3 times in a week, I meant 3 times in general. There's no "happy feeling" of downing a boss anymore, because you know you have to down it again before it's actually "dead". And by the time you down it on the highest difficulty(if you even get that far because your raiders are burned out by then). you no longer care.

If they do want hard mode raiding, then at least implement the same way it was done in Ulduar, that was hard mode raiding done right, after that it's all been down hill.

Chimi's Avatar


Chimi
02.18.2012 , 10:59 AM | #6
I'm really getting sick of the whole "only the top % of guilds will see the raids if they make them hard" argument. For those of you who believe that argument to be true, you should go to MMO-Champion and take a look at their raiding statistics they released about a month ago where they break down how much of the player base has done the content in Cataclysm.

Blizzard made the tiered raiding system so that, like you say, casuals can see the content. The problem is, even with the easier raid models, casuals are still not doing the raids. So Blizzard decided to make LFR, which is an extremely easy raid geared towards the casuals where they only have to do whatever bosses they want and then they can leave. Well guess what? They are still NOT doing the content.

Why? Because casuals don't raid. It's not why most of them play these games. So trying to make end game content available to them, you're actually alienating an even bigger player base of people who actually WANT to raid.
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Inune's Avatar


Inune
02.18.2012 , 12:15 PM | #7
WoW's raiding model in Vanillia and BC was functionally terrible. It may have felt cool if you were lucky enough to get picked up by a guild willing to redo attunements and gear farming for you (or if you were selfish enough to ditch your guild for one a higher up on progression), but for most people it wound up like this:


Step 1: Farm resist gear and/or attunements for everyone in your raid.
Step 2: Attempt higher tier raid.
Step 3: While undergoing learning process in new raid, have half your raiders poached by guild farther in progression than you.
Step 4: Farm resist gear and/or attunements for new recruits by redoing raid no one wants to run anymore.
Step 5: Attempt higher tier raid.
Step 6: While trying to teach new recruits fights in new raid, have raid members poached by guild farther in progression than you.
Step 7: Farm resist gear and/or attunements for new recruits by redoing raid no one wants to run anymore.
Step 8: Weep quietly because you're stuck doing Kara/MC for an entire expansion with occasional forays into SS/TK/BWL, since your only real options are jumping ship to a guild farther in progression than you or repeatedly doing a raid no one wants to do in vain hope that maybe this time you'll get some loyal people in your group that don't suck at raiding.


On the other hand, you could be part of the top 10% or so that, usually for arbitrary reasons, belonged to a good progression guild from the get go. Congratulations! You're now able to run raids beyond the first tier of endga- oh wait, what's that? Your buddy wants to play? One of your healers ran into real-life issues and has to quit? Anything else happened to throw a minor perturbance into the raiding availability of your members? Your options are now:

1)poach new raid member from lower tier guild like *******es
2)Farm resist gear and/or attunements for new recruits by redoing raid no one wants to run anymore.



Man, that was such a fun era of raiding.

DukSaber's Avatar


DukSaber
02.18.2012 , 12:27 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by GetPloughed View Post
This is something I don't understand why BioWare would implement it. There is nothing positive from it. It causes raid burn out from the top guilds who have to kill each boss 3 times, and from other players there is no reason to continue raiding. When a boss is dead, it's dead, getting a few extra stats on gear is pointless. And again when you keep chasing that carrot for some extra stats, you again get burnt out.

One difficulty where bosses get harder as you go along is the raid model that is king. You ask any raider from WoW, what they're favourite time was and they'll say Burning Crusade. And it's not just nostalgia talking, it's real.

At least WoW started with a good raiding model before it came to it's current garbage, enough that they were able to suck players into it. Here's to hoping they fix this in the next Operations patch, but based on the last Q and A. I doubt it.

Really dont get why you dont understand it. We can finish both normal mode operations in under 2hrs. Its just way way too easy. Across the board every boss is zero challege. If you cant die and healing people is a joke then something is wrong. I understand needed to make a normal mode easy though b/c some people just dont play alot and they dont want a really difficult operation. Without the harder modes, raiding would be dead.

And i played wow for very long time and ive been hardline raiding for most of it,,,Burning crusade is not my favorite. Its real in your mind maybe but thats about it.

Lymain's Avatar


Lymain
02.18.2012 , 12:32 PM | #9
I hate different difficulties too, but I don't think you'll ever convince BioWare that people shouldn't be able to see the "story" if they don't have what it takes for harder raids.

Maoxx's Avatar


Maoxx
02.18.2012 , 12:58 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by GetPloughed View Post
That is the same mentality that has ruined raiding in WoW. This should be a new game, a different game. These "casual" raiders that have brought down WoW to the level it's at, they're not playing SWTOR. Why should BioWare cater to people who aren't even playing their game? Seems like they do that in all their other games, so not a surprise I guess.

And I didn't mean 3 times in a week, I meant 3 times in general. There's no "happy feeling" of downing a boss anymore, because you know you have to down it again before it's actually "dead". And by the time you down it on the highest difficulty(if you even get that far because your raiders are burned out by then). you no longer care.

If they do want hard mode raiding, then at least implement the same way it was done in Ulduar, that was hard mode raiding done right, after that it's all been down hill.

Actually I hate to break it to you but those casuals ARE playing this game. And the content shows that is indeed catered to them. Blizzard learned this mistake in cataclysm by making the first tier of content super challenging to them. Personally I thought the first raids/heroics of Cataclysm were tuned just fine, but not everybody is me either.

I do think they should just implement different raids for 8 man and 16 man content and tune them appropriately rather than using the same raid for both. That way you get a little more content to do, and the dev's wont have to deal with "attempting" to tune both to relative difficulty. I say it like that because so far Blizzard has not been able to succeed on that front, and the same goes for Bioware, it pretty obvious both 8/16 are on different levels of difficulty.