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Kinetic/Shadow numbers


Philosomanic's Avatar


Philosomanic
02.16.2012 , 12:29 PM | #1
I'm still leveling right now, but I want to pick a spec and stick with it. People who have been playing kinetic since 10 have a huge advantage over people who swapped over at 50. I don't want to have to unlearn my keybindings. Even if the build I end up going for matures late, I'd rather deal with a gimpy build now so that my build is second nature when I hit 50.

So, this is where you guys help out. I'm looking for rough percentage approximations. I'm looking to find out whether it's "+30% defense, -5% offenses" or more like "+15% defense, -10% DPS". Going from Infiltration to Kinetic,


1) How will my opening damage change?
By "opening damage", I mean the first ~10s out of stealth.

2) How will my burst damage change?
I'm referring to burst damage, whether from stealth or not. For an Infiltration Shadow, this would be the burst of Potency + Breach + Project with all the procs up.

3) How will my sustained single-target damage change?
This is for both PvE and PvP. Talking about sustained damage over a longer fight (15s+). As a kinetic, I'm guessing I'll have more fights like this.

4) How will my sustained AoE damage change?
Mostly a PvE concern, but I'd still like to know.

5) How will my passive defenses change?*
This is how long you'll live if you just sit there and let them beat on you. So if I could take 8s of punishment from a Sorc as Infiltration, but it takes them 10s to kill me as a Kinetic, that would be 25%. No cooldowns used, but maintainable skills (Kinetic Ward) are fine.

6) How will my active defenses change?*
This is when you're using your active skills like harnessed shadows healing, debuffs from Slow Time/Force Breach, proc heals from Combat Technique, etc. However, still no cooldowns used.

*If melee/ranged is significantly different from force defenses, then please give both numbers.


For your percentages, assume pretty standard endgame gear for each build. I know you can't say this exactly, but a rough estimate will help me out a lot.

Thanks in advance!
PvP Dacromir -- Vanguard -- Level 50 PvE
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Kai-Eurah-Tird's Avatar


Kai-Eurah-Tird
02.16.2012 , 01:04 PM | #2
1) How will my opening damage change?
By "opening damage", I mean the first ~10s out of stealth.

As kinetic, your damage is pretty even through out, you'll hit just as hard first 10s out of stealth as you would 3 minutes into a fight.

2) How will my burst damage change?
I'm referring to burst damage, whether from stealth or not. For an Infiltration Shadow, this would be the burst of Potency + Breach + Project with all the procs up.

The only "burst damage" you have is Project while Particle Acceleration and Force Potency triggered (along with whatever stims, adrenal and relic you activate) follow up by TK throw with 3 Harness Shadow. Not much "burst" but as bursty as Kinetic gets.

3) How will my sustained single-target damage change?
This is for both PvE and PvP. Talking about sustained damage over a longer fight (15s+).
As a kinetic, I'm guessing I'll have more fights like this.

Your DPS is even throughout.

4) How will my sustained AoE damage change?
Mostly a PvE concern, but I'd still like to know. Slow time is probably one of the best AoE attack we got, so that's probably better than nothing you get from the infiltration tree , although they have 30 force Whirling Blow, though hardly anyone spec for it.

5) How will my passive defenses change?*
This is how long you'll live if you just sit there and let them beat on you. So if I could take 8s of punishment from a Sorc as Infiltration, but it takes them 10s to kill me as a Kinetic, that would be 25%. No cooldowns used, but maintainable skills (Kinetic Ward) are fine.

You'll have around 40% Damage reduction from armor, compare to infiltration's 20-23% mitigation. You'll also get Elemental and Internal damage resist in Combat Technique if you put points in Technqiue Mastery. Kinetic Combat's defense lies in their utility abilities, spinning kick keeps the enemy from hurting you for 2s while you wreck them instead, stun, etc.

6) How will my active defenses change?*
This is when you're using your active skills like harnessed shadows healing, debuffs from Slow Time/Force Breach, proc heals from Combat Technique, etc. However, still no cooldowns used.

Self Heals (constantly during combat) , Resilience(every 45s), Force Cloak (2min) and Saber Ward (2min). And I'll throw in Force Sprint (every 20s), this is a utility skill, you can use it to escape in conjuction with resilience and force cloak, or you can use it to break out of root which can save you life by putting you at your target's face and resume breaking it.

*If melee/ranged is significantly different from force defenses, then please give both numbers.

Philosomanic's Avatar


Philosomanic
02.16.2012 , 01:22 PM | #3
Well, I was kind of hoping for numbers. For instance, I know that infiltration gives higher burst damage, but are we talking something like 10% more burst damage, or more like 40% more burst damage? That kind of thing.

I get that Infiltration has better single-target DPS, single-target control, burst damage, and stealth, whereas Kinetic has better group control, utility, and defenses. I'm just wondering about how much DPS I'd give up for about how much defense.

I'm looking for something like this:

1) No change.
2) -15%
3) -5%
4) +10%
5) +30% melee, +10% force
6) +40% melee, +20% force


From looking at TORHead and the forums, I can see the differences myself. However, until I hit 50 and spend a lot of time experimenting, I can't tell the scale of the differences. I don't know if the heal from Combat Technique makes a large difference, or if it heals for maybe one attack over the duration of a 1v1 (I suspect the latter). I can't really tell whether Infiltration's Project+Breach is only slightly better than Kinetic's Project+TKT, or if Infiltration would do tons more damage there. If I'm going to be giving up 20% offense for a measly 5% increase in defenses, I'll stay Infiltration. That's why I'm trying to get an idea of the scale of the changes.
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Kai-Eurah-Tird's Avatar


Kai-Eurah-Tird
02.16.2012 , 02:10 PM | #4
Sorry, without combat log there really is no way to tell exactly the differences between builds are.

Philosomanic's Avatar


Philosomanic
02.16.2012 , 02:22 PM | #5
Well, not exactly, no. But you can give a rough estimate. If it takes you 6 seconds on an infiltration shadow to burn down your average sorc, but 9 seconds on kinetic, then you can say that kinetic loses ~30% burst damage.

Really just looking for an estimate (within 10% or so). I just want to know which of the following is most true:

"I'll be able to take double the damage, and only do 10% less. Kinetic is worth it."
"I'll get a good 25% more defense, and lose 30% burst damage but only 15% sustained. Either one is good."
"I'll get a 15% defense increase against ranged/melee only, and I'll lose 25% DPS. Stick with Infiltration."
PvP Dacromir -- Vanguard -- Level 50 PvE
The Imp'Crusher Legacy
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.16.2012 , 02:38 PM | #6
By my estimates, tank specs in tank gear do roughly 80% of the damage of a DPS specs in DPS gear while taking roughly half the damage. While leveling, since you get a companion and most enemies die quickly and easily, the additional survivability is only useful insofar as hard enemies (elites, champions) are concerned. In my experience, tanks and DPS tend to level at the same speed: the decreased downtime is counteracted by a slower kill speed.
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Shardie's Avatar


Shardie
02.16.2012 , 06:31 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Philosomanic View Post
I'm still leveling right now, but I want to pick a spec and stick with it. People who have been playing kinetic since 10 have a huge advantage over people who swapped over at 50. I don't want to have to unlearn my keybindings.
Honestly, the difference between my infiltration Keybindings and my Kinetic Keybindings is, what four skills. Its not really that big of a deal so long as the important skills stay where they are.
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Philosomanic's Avatar


Philosomanic
02.17.2012 , 05:16 PM | #8
@Kitru

Thanks, just what I was looking for.


@Shardie

It's not just the keybindings, it's the rotations. When you play a certain style long enough, you start doing your thing without much conscious thought. That lets you think "Okay, gonna CC this mob and then burn that one down" rather than "Mind Maze, Tab, Clairvoyant, Clairvoyant, Project, Breach, etc.". I don't want to get used to a Shadow rotation and then switch to Kinetic, because that would take a long while for me to get used to.

I wouldn't even think to use TK Throw at all, or to use Spinning Kick in combat. It would take ages for me to be looking for PA procs rather than using DS/CSx2 and then Project. I'd be used to watching for FW procs, followed by Low Slash -> SS, which you can't use as a Kinetic.

You get the idea. I'd adjust after some time, but I'd rather pick a build and grow with it now than to try and change what has become second nature much later in the game.
PvP Dacromir -- Vanguard -- Level 50 PvE
The Imp'Crusher Legacy
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Hydurz's Avatar


Hydurz
02.17.2012 , 07:05 PM | #9
Obviously it depends on the target that you are fighting ^gear / skill

the lower numbers are from fights with champion / bm gear

high end numbers = fights with centurion / champ / orange




Kinetic : Longer fights, less of a chance of getting bursted down
w/ full BM stalker gear ^slightly modded

project : 2-3k ^w, procs
Force Breach : Low 1k ^aoe
Slowtime : 1-2k ^ aoe
dbl strike : 1k x 2


Infil: Burst,Burst,Burst... you will know you won the fight in < 6 moves

Project : 3- 5k ^upheaval proc etc

breach - 2 - 5k ^exit strat.

Calir strike 1k x 2 swings

Shadow Strike : 2k - 4k

only talking about crits




these are very rough numbers


valor rank 69

Zunzun's Avatar


Zunzun
02.17.2012 , 07:22 PM | #10
Infiltration and Kinetic rotations are incredibly easy so you don't really have to worry about that. Almost no keybinding change. The third spec, Balance, is very different however, but that's not really the point here (but keep in mind that Balance is by far the best spec for sustained mono/multi target damage).

About your questions, assuming full dps gear : Kinetic (Combat Tech) vs Infiltration (Shadow Tech) would be like (of course, anything is just a rough estimation) :

1) How will my opening damage change?
-25%
10s is usually enough to throw your first burst with both specs, Infiltration is able to trigger it faster however.

2) How will my burst damage change?
-25%
With potency+relic+adrenal, an accelerated project followed by an harnessed shadow throw can hit for 10k+ in 3 GCD on a low to medium armored target (I used to sometimes get my 2.5k medal on a TK throw tick, not anymore due surge nerf).

3) How will my sustained single-target damage change?
~-5%
Infiltration isn't that good for sustained damage, while harnessed shadow TK throw is really good.

4) How will my sustained AoE damage change?
+ a lot of %
Infiltration can't actually deal any decent AoE damage, while you'll get Slow Time and CT Force Breach.

5) How will my passive defenses change?*
6) How will my active defenses change?*
+100%
Gotta merge those two, since the healing from harnessed shadow is a key part of your survivability. Change between the two spec is quite huge, Energy/Kinetic damage reduction will go from ~24% to 40%, while Internal/Elemental will go from 10 to 21%. You'll get +6% defense, and a shield (if you use one, I don't) will increase that survivability a bit more. And even if you don't wanna take CDs into account, keep in mind you gain a -25% CD and +66% duration on resilience. And you of course get all that healing from CT and TK throw.

And I need to add :
7) How will my utility change?*
+200%
You'll get Force Pull, an almost spammable AoE slow and the possibility to have a 100% uptime on your guard.

TL;DR :
You'll losee some burst, a tiny bit of a sustained damage, and will get a lot of survivability and utility. That's why I'm not running Infiltration anymore, only Kinetic or Balance. Mainly Kinetic for PvP.

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