Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Vader vs Revan


Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.27.2012 , 03:49 PM | #371
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
A matter of debate that is.
Is it? Who do we have?

Obi-Wan Kenobi- The Soresu Master. Has defeated enemies like General Grievous and Darth Maul, not to mention Anakin Skywalker himself.
Plo Koon- One of the most skilled practitioners of Djem So of all time and one of the most powerful Jedi in the Golden Age.
Count Dooku- The Master of Makashi (which is a for dedicated to lightsaber dueling) and was once considered the Chosen One. Defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin soundly in multiple engagements and could duel on even terms with Mace Windu.
Kit Fisto- Master of the Shii-Cho form which allowed him to defeat General Grievous with relative ease. If Revan went up against him with two blades, Kit would win easy.
Mace Windu- I don't even need to say anything here. He defeated Darth Sidious. Revan is no match for him.
Yoda- Kinda speaks for himself.
Cin Drallig- Battlemaster of the Jedi Order and combat instructor to Obi-Wan, Anakin etc.

Vader could keep up with many of these Jedi (pre-Mustafar he defeated Dooku and Drallig). The only ones that could give the Dark Lord trouble (and beat him) are Yoda and Mace Windu. Vader was one of the most dominant lightsaber duelists of all time.

Vader trounces Revan.

Edit: The reason Revan can't beat any of the above is because he is simply outclassed. By the time of the Golden Age, the lightsaber forms had evolved far beyond what Revan could comprehend. The great Masters of the Order were some of the best ever seen (as noted above). Vader is THE Jedi Killer. Revan is just another kill for him.
Added Chapter 49 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.27.2012 , 04:12 PM | #372
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Is it? Who do we have?

Obi-Wan Kenobi- The Soresu Master. Has defeated enemies like General Grievous and Darth Maul, not to mention Anakin Skywalker himself.
Plo Koon- One of the most skilled practitioners of Djem So of all time and one of the most powerful Jedi in the Golden Age.
Count Dooku- The Master of Makashi (which is a for dedicated to lightsaber dueling) and was once considered the Chosen One. Defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin soundly in multiple engagements and could duel on even terms with Mace Windu.
Kit Fisto- Master of the Shii-Cho form which allowed him to defeat General Grievous with relative ease. If Revan went up against him with two blades, Kit would win easy.
Mace Windu- I don't even need to say anything here. He defeated Darth Sidious. Revan is no match for him.
Yoda- Kinda speaks for himself.
Cin Drallig- Battlemaster of the Jedi Order and combat instructor to Obi-Wan, Anakin etc.

Vader could keep up with many of these Jedi (pre-Mustafar he defeated Dooku and Drallig). The only ones that could give the Dark Lord trouble (and beat him) are Yoda and Mace Windu. Vader was one of the most dominant lightsaber duelists of all time.

Vader trounces Revan.

Edit: The reason Revan can't beat any of the above is because he is simply outclassed. By the time of the Golden Age, the lightsaber forms had evolved far beyond what Revan could comprehend. The great Masters of the Order were some of the best ever seen (as noted above). Vader is THE Jedi Killer. Revan is just another kill for him.
Well I guess my attempt to not start a debate wasn't good enough. Fine. Here goes:

Revan:
- One of the greatest duelists of his time
-defeated Malak. We've been through this. Due to Bastila's battle med, Malak's dark nexus (Star Forge advantage) was gone but he still had many bodies to suck life from. Revan (likely) had to fight Malak 3-4 times in a row. That's impressive.
- defeated MtU (in war and in one-on-one)
- defeated the entire Korriban academy
- defeated Darth Bandon
- defeated Darth Nyriss in a second (Darth Nyriss > Scourge + Surik)
- understands both sides of the force (doesn't use 'em both I know)
- influenced Vitiate into doing the Treaty of Coruscant (I think)
- great tactician

So yeah...
it IS debatable. Are you trying to say it isn't debatable? Do you realize how illogical that is?

EDIT: and you mentioned the "outclassed" by future generations again. I've explained how this doesn't apply to individuals before. As for the Jedi having dueling techniques that Revan couldn't comprehend due to thousands of years between them - wrong. Kreia herself said that Tulak Hord was a FAR better duelist then the likes of Meetra Surik. How is that so? He came a LONG time before Meetra.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.27.2012 , 04:25 PM | #373
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Well I guess my attempt to not start a debate wasn't good enough. Fine. Here goes:

Revan:
- One of the greatest duelists of his time
-defeated Malak. We've been through this. Due to Bastila's battle med, Malak's dark nexus (Star Forge advantage) was gone but he still had many bodies to suck life from. Revan (likely) had to fight Malak 3-4 times in a row. That's impressive.
- defeated MtU (in war and in one-on-one)
- defeated the entire Korriban academy
- defeated Darth Bandon
- defeated Darth Nyriss in a second (Darth Nyriss > Scourge + Surik)
- understands both sides of the force (doesn't use 'em both I know)
- influenced Vitiate into doing the Treaty of Coruscant (I think)
- great tactician

So yeah...
it IS debatable. Are you trying to say it isn't debatable? Do you realize how illogical that is?
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

One of the best duelists of his time? Yes. On the caliber of those mentioned above? No.
Defeated Darth Malak: Not that impressive. Vader could have steamrolled everything in the Star Forge with ease.
Defeated MtU: All those mentioned above could as well.
A Korriban academy filled with mostly students that had a meager grasp of the Dark Side at best. Vader walked into a trap set by 8 Jedi Masters(note MASTERS) and took out (I think) 5 of them before help arrived.
Bandon? Please. Even Darth Maul could beat him.
Nyriss unleashed all of her power in one blast. Revan turned that blast against her to destroy her. That doesn't speak well for Nyriss.
Revan understands both sides of the Force? Maybe, not to the degree of those mentioned above. Mace Windu and Yoda could contemplate the Dark Side without being corrupted. Revan doesn't understand the Force to the same level as Yoda or Mace Windu.
Revan only survived his mental battle with the Emperor because of Meetra Surik's spirit helping him. Look how that turned out. Vader's will is indomitable.
Great Tactician? So is Vader.

You do realize that none of these accomplishments compare to Vader's. If we want to go off of feats, then Vader still wins.
Added Chapter 49 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.27.2012 , 04:27 PM | #374
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
EDIT: and you mentioned the "outclassed" by future generations again. I've explained how this doesn't apply to individuals before. As for the Jedi having dueling techniques that Revan couldn't comprehend due to thousands of years between them - wrong. Kreia herself said that Tulak Hord was a FAR better duelist then the likes of Meetra Surik. How is that so? He came a LONG time before Meetra.
Was Traya there? Does she personally know Tulak Hord? Character statements are N-Canon.
Added Chapter 49 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MyDarkSunshine's Avatar


MyDarkSunshine
12.27.2012 , 04:36 PM | #375
I think Aurbere, you're missing MasterMe's point. The point is, that like many things in life, fiction or otherwise, the relative power of characters within the Star Wars universe is debatable. Which it absolutely it. One could make an argument suggesting Vader post-suit was slow with a lightsaber, fought to a standstill by an old and unfit Obi-Wan; which based on the movie interpretation of said battle (and thus G-canon) he was. Now don't get me wrong, I know that probably isn't how Lucas envisioned the event or how it should be viewed; but that argument follows reasonably sound logic. Based on scenes from the movies many of these apparently amazing Jedi could be viewed as entirely incompetent.

The entire argument based off the "Golden Age of the Jedi" is entirely speculative, as that could mean so many different things. Without further clarification it should not be used to decide all Jedi of a certain time period are vastly superior. It is also flawed as you're comparing Jedi to each other, and you almost always follow a circlular argument of "this guy could beat this guy that could fight this guy fairly and that guy could beat him and he's the greatest Jedi ever in the greatest age of Jedi". Okay, hyperbole on my part but it does come off that way to a certain extent. The only real indicator of their relative strengths is Lucas' direct comment on Anakin's power, and some made about Sidious and Luke. Most these comments, whilst canon, are also merely products of Lucas wanting to keep his toys super special, which makes for lame story but unfortunately has to be considered fact. However given Lucas has never commented on the relative power of EU characters (indeed, many times he's stated he doesn't read their stories) you have no way of saying "[insert character] is better than [insert character] by canon law". Thus, it is open to debate.
"Who I am is not important- my message is." Revan

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.27.2012 , 04:40 PM | #376
Quote: Originally Posted by MyDarkSunshine View Post
I think Aurbere, you're missing MasterMe's point. The point is, that like many things in life, fiction or otherwise, the relative power of characters within the Star Wars universe is debatable. Which it absolutely it. One could make an argument suggesting Vader post-suit was slow with a lightsaber, fought to a standstill by an old and unfit Obi-Wan; which based on the movie interpretation of said battle (and thus G-canon) he was. Now don't get me wrong, I know that probably isn't how Lucas envisioned the event or how it should be viewed; but that argument follows reasonably sound logic. Based on scenes from the movie many of these apparently amazing Jedi could be viewed as entirely incompetent.

The entire argument based off the "Golden Age of the Jedi" is entirely speculative, as that could mean so many different things and without further clarification it should not be used to decide all Jedi of a certain time period are vastly superior. It is also flawed as you're comparing Jedi to each other, and you almost always follow a circle argument of "this guy could beat this guy that could fight this guy fairly and that guy could beat him and he's the greatest Jedi ever in the greatest age of Jedi". Okay, hyperbole on my part but it does come off that way to a certain extent. The only real indicator of their relative strengths is Lucas' direct comment on Anakin's power, and some made about Sidious and Luke. Most these comments, whilst canon, are also merely products of Lucas wanting to keep his toys super special, which makes for lame story but unfortunately has to be considered fact. However given Lucas has never commented on the relative power of EU characters (indeed, many times he's stated he doesn't read their stories) you have no way of saying "[insert character] is better than [insert character] by canon law". Thus, it is open to debate.
You make a fair point. However, the purpose of these debates is for people to decide who beats who. Obviously we have no bearing on canon fact, but by providing examples from canon elements we see that Darth Vader would beat Revan. We can even use G-Canon elements to prove this.

But fine. I see no point in dragging thise thread on. We all know Vader would win.
Added Chapter 49 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.27.2012 , 04:42 PM | #377
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

One of the best duelists of his time? Yes. On the caliber of those mentioned above? No.
Defeated Darth Malak: Not that impressive. Vader could have steamrolled everything in the Star Forge with ease.
Defeated MtU: All those mentioned above could as well.
A Korriban academy filled with mostly students that had a meager grasp of the Dark Side at best. Vader walked into a trap set by 8 Jedi Masters(note MASTERS) and took out (I think) 5 of them before help arrived.
Bandon? Please. Even Darth Maul could beat him.
Nyriss unleashed all of her power in one blast. Revan turned that blast against her to destroy her. That doesn't speak well for Nyriss.
Revan understands both sides of the Force? Maybe, not to the degree of those mentioned above. Mace Windu and Yoda could contemplate the Dark Side without being corrupted. Revan doesn't understand the Force to the same level as Yoda or Mace Windu.
Revan only survived his mental battle with the Emperor because of Meetra Surik's spirit helping him. Look how that turned out. Vader's will is indomitable.
Great Tactician? So is Vader.

You do realize that none of these accomplishments compare to Vader's. If we want to go off of feats, then Vader still wins.
Wow. So much speculation here. It's funny to hear your answer for how Revan beat Nyriss with ease. You say the same thing every time but it doesn't change the fact that he beat her EASILY.

First off, I wasn't comparing him to Vader as much as I was comparing him to the Jedi you mentioned.

And then you say stuff like the Korriban academy students had a "meager" understanding of the force. How the heck do you know that? The truth is, you don't know. So take the accomplishment for what it is: Revan defeated the entire academy. Don't try to add or detract from that with speculation.

He also beat Darth Bandon. Simple. You said Darth Maul could beat Bandon. Did Maul and Bandon ever fight? No.

You also said that Revan's understanding of the force wasn't as great as those like Windu or Yoda. I would agree with you, but can either of us proove that? No. We have no way of knowing who's knowledge of the force was greater for sure.

For the love of God would you please take these accomplishments for what they are instead of trying to act like you know everything. You're usually a logical person but you seriously just made a sad post.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.27.2012 , 04:43 PM | #378
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Was Traya there? Does she personally know Tulak Hord? Character statements are N-Canon.
I would take Traya's opinion about Tulak Hord over yours any day.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.27.2012 , 04:57 PM | #379
Alright...so here are more of Vader's feats seeing as the debate still goes on.
===========

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...__0__super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...__1__super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...__2__super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...__3__super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...__4__super.jpg

Beats Celeste Morne who had the talisman of Murr which increased her power in combat and this was before Vader was in his prime fighting ability.
=======

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...ture__186_.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...ture__187_.jpg

Surviving a shot from a turret.
=====

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...ture__110_.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...ture__125_.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...ture__152_.jpg

Moves his saber so fast, it makes afterimages/afterglows of his blade.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.27.2012 , 05:13 PM | #380
I'm just going to leave this all here.

Originally posted by Rhyltran(spelling is probably wrong):


Killed 8 Jedi when they ambushed him. 8 on one.

He's killed Roan Shryne, Forte, Kulke, Master Chatak, Cin Drallig, Jambe, Nam, Klossi, Obi Wan, and more. Among those..

Many were masters. Cin Drallig was the weaponmaster. Obi Wan Kenobi was the best Soresu user in history. Dooku was the best Makashi user in history and Yoda's pupil. So two users are the best at their respective styles in history. According to Lucas Vader is 80% of Sidious. The most powerful Sith Lord in history. Galen Marek has defeated quite the impressive resume of Jedi masters as well and even took on the emperor after only beating Vader by a hair.

Just by those numbers alone those are 17 confirmed Jedi kills off the top of my head. Oh. 18. Galen's father.

Let's not forget that he himself is the best Djem So user in history and is well versed in various other styles.
Quote:
We know Anakin defeated Dooku.

We know after Anakin's turn to Vader he became more powerful than he was as "anakin." he became a better duelist and more experienced as well.

We know Vader canonically has withstood the strongest force Lightning Shown.

We know for 100% certainty that Vader was very close to Sidious in terms of power.

We know Sidious originally was scared of him before he set up his clones.

We also know Sidious is the most powerful Sith, even before he became Sidious reborn.

To claim Revan would crush Vader is ludicrous. Such a statement would mean that Revan can defeat Yoda with relative ease. Do I think Vader will crush Revan? Not at all. Could they possibly be comparable? Sure. I admit that is a possibility. The evidence isn't in his favor, however.



Quote:
From force unleashed..

The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to the one mistake his Master had done.
He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

Vader casually tossed him toward the icy cliff.

He though he was ready -and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
A simple double stroke, up then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrist and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a Telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides...

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.
The apprentice vowed not to give him one...

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near...

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith Lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. [...] The Dark Lord was instantly on his feet...

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.
For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

Note that the apprentice had defeated multiple Jedi masters himself, was a power house in the force, and was extremely agile. If you want more sources. Go ahead. But it's obvious. Vader was by far one of the most powerful Sith. Even in his suit. Even Sidious regarded him as a threat.
Quote:
"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

Right here it shows that currently Sidious fears Vader. That he's a threat to his mastery of the dark side. Just prior the book was talking about Sidious views on the rule of two and how he remembered when he killed his master. Vader is a threat to him. He's THAT powerful but Sidious feels in the future. He won't be. He'll become so powerful that there wouldn't be a need for another apprentice. That time hasn't come yet. First it states he's becoming more powerful now that he's finally tapping deep into the dark side and then it states in the future he won't need to fear him.


"Time and again the two Jedi attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate the Jedi strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed."

"She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems."

"Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with anger. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with his students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion."
"He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back..."

page 278.

Page 277

Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade."

This was against, admittedly, two skilled duelists. He was also facing Starstone, Kulka, Forte, Jambe, Nam, and Klossi. None of them could match him. Against Roan Shryne, he slashed at his legs at one point and Vader leapt over his blow, twisted in the air, and landed behind him.

From force unleashed..

The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to the one mistake his Master had done.
He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

Vader casually tossed him toward the icy cliff.

He though he was ready -and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
A simple double stroke, up then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrist and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a Telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides...

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.
The apprentice vowed not to give him one...

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near...

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith Lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. [...] The Dark Lord was instantly on his feet...

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.
For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

Note that the apprentice had defeated multiple Jedi masters himself, was a power house in the force, and was extremely agile. If you want more sources. Go ahead. But it's obvious. Vader was by far one of the most powerful Sith. Even in his suit. Even Sidious regarded him as a threat.

The novels disagree with your assessment. Vader is very powerful. He also has more resistance to force lightning than any Jedi or Sith.

Edit: Here's something posted by Rayla in the previous incarnation:

Revan Reborn could not defeat Darth Vader in any incarnation, that is like stating Revan is on par with obi-Wan Kenobi, THE Master of Soresu, which is basically the only reason Vader lost that duel, against anyone else he has a good chance of victory, barring Yoda, Windu and Sidious, Darth Vader has simply demonstrated more power than Revan, read the full canon

Sorry for using other people's arguments, but I thought I would bring back these points for those who missed them.

Edit #2: Here's some more from Rayla:

Darth Vader dominated Obi-Wan Kenobi in the duel on Mustafar, only Soresu and a lapse in Vader's judgement won Kenobi that duel.

Revan against Vader pre-mustafar, doesn't have nearly the same Saber skills, but I would say his force prowess was superior, the question here is, can Revan stay away from Vader long enough to defeat him, well there is a problem here, Vader was an expert at Push, telekinesis and Choke and that was before his Mustafar injuries, Revan wasn't, none of the canon states he was a master of anything, but his force prowess demonstrated on Kaas, is superior to Pre-Mustafar Vader's, but it isn't enough to keep Vader away and sorry, but Revan in any incarnation is not superior to Vader in lightsaber skill, not even close.

But that isn't the argument here, it's both of them in their primes, Vader far outmatches Revan, it's simple.

Again, sorry for bringing these old posts up, but I've said all I need to say and I felt that it might be best to bring back these old posts for others to see.
Added Chapter 49 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus