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Time to end Biochem reusables

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
Time to end Biochem reusables
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Aestel's Avatar


Aestel
02.19.2012 , 11:56 AM | #151
My sage isn't biochem and so I end up purchasing stims for her which I don't have any problem with as they persist through death and only cost around 15k each which seems reasonable.
Medpacs I get by with as you can get the 3k heals from mob drops and 1500 from a stim vendor so you only need a few of the crafted ones to give that extra healing boost when really needed.
Adrenals though are just something I've taken to not bothering with. It's less though a problem with biochems getting a reusable one more that they should make all version reusable.

Manathayria's Avatar


Manathayria
02.19.2012 , 12:14 PM | #152
Quote: Originally Posted by GnatB View Post
My *opinion* is that it definitely should not. As such, the only rational fix to biochem is either removing the reusable, or removing the Biochem restriction on them. Either works.
Which the other crafts have - chance on crit item with the aug slot. Unfortunately they don't have a skill req (like the biochem items do) which means people cycle through them and go over to BC. The req for those crafted items should be there just like Biochem.


Quote:
And I'm sorry, all the biochems going on about how their reusable stims aren't that big of an advantage... are correct. They keep bringing that up because it's a total red herring. [b] It isn't the stims. It's the reusable medpacks and the reuseable adrenals.[b] Stims last long enough that it's quite feasible for non biochems to pony up the cash to buy them for two hours of use, and people (both biochems and not) are probably going to be useing the superior exotech whatever ones anyways.. Medpacks and adrenals on the other hand? No chance. You aren't going to be spending hours making something you use every 90 seconds or 3 minutes. And therefor the price will be similarly prohibitive.

Quote:
I'm a Biochemist. I use to sell about 10-20 stims a day. Now i will be lucky if i can sell 2. Who would buy stims when the costs for 2 stims is the same cost as an unlimited reusable one?
Quote: Originally Posted by Chunkie View Post
We don't need a third clicky (adrenal). We already have 2 via the relics. And the game is easy enough as it is. Adrenals are supposed to be used rarely to give you that kick you need on that extra hard kill, that's why it's so expensive. It's not supposed to be a common ability.
I think that what some are missing is Chunkie is a BC, he's trying to get the reusable nerfed because it's not making him enough of a profit now. He wouldn't be happy with a balance that allows anyone to use the epic reusable. Which would, in fact, balance BC in the end and give us one very expensive stim - consider it a piece of gear to sell. He wants no reusable because it allows him to drain any non BCs even further, and discourages people from using 'his' profession.

That said, he already stated he's made 20mil off BC, but only 10mil off the others. The other skills need buffed, BC clearly is still profitable even WITH the reusable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarizAA
Exactly. Make every professions a Biochem. Artifice can produce light sabre amplifier crystal, which lasts 2 hour before burning out, give boosts, and stacks with other profession items. This way every profession will be viable, and GM will get a huge boost. People will produce boosters to sell them in the market to buy boosters from other professions.
^
Quote: Originally Posted by ColonelKer-Nal View Post
They have no idea what crafters want out of crafting
I don't think you do either... as a pure crafter in most games I don't care about the reusable items like this..... what I do care about is them drawing everyone to *one* craft. As a pure crafter, I also dislike raid-dropped patterns. As a pure crafter, I prefer crafting items being more useful than raid/raid dropped because it pushes player economy more... Big surprise there huh?

To fix everyone going to bc, it may simply mean making the biochem items that are reusable, boe and not requiring BC. Also, may mean creating new tiers of it with each new tier of gear. Those changes however, shouldn't hit till after 1.2 if they're needed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Descends View Post
ending biochems reusable will end biochem completely.... serves no purpose beyond that. The idea shouldn't be to take away everything useful...but to buff other things that are slacking to make em more appealing.
^ ... again.

They need to stop making things that we can use that aren't worthless worse to have till we stop using them.

If they continue to nerf biochem, you're going to see no one using it, and with the cost the items are put up for, you may see a drop in prices on what you can sell.

Stop calling for nerfs, we need the other skills buffed, and then we may need BC brought back up on par with them.

Joefjr's Avatar


Joefjr
02.19.2012 , 12:17 PM | #153
The re-usable is the Bonus that BIo-Chem gets, like Artifice and their Relics and Cyber with their Re-usable. If they nerf Bio-Chem perks they will have to nerf all other crew skill perks to bring them more in line with each other.

I agree thou that when crafting Adrenals 1 craft should yield more than 1 item.

Renamesk's Avatar


Renamesk
02.19.2012 , 12:39 PM | #154
Quote: Originally Posted by Ka-tel View Post
No, it doesn't work for everyone. It works for everyone who doesn't want to have biochem. What's the incentive to be biochem then, when you can just buy everything biochem has to offer?
As a biochem, can I buy the BoP items other crafters make?

NO?!?!? Then how the hell do you suppose what you say is in any way logical, whatsoever?

And thats why I said remove the BoP items from other crafters as well. Try to read my argument before getting enraged and spewing flawed and worthless retorts. Kthx

OldSwab's Avatar


OldSwab
02.19.2012 , 12:55 PM | #155
PvE side, if someone has taken biochem and they aren't sharing with the team (as best they are able) then they are gimping their chances, as well as yours. They are your "reusable" source. My tank doesn't start a hard mode without 100k credits worth of consumables, minimum. I picked up the Exotech Power schematic the other day...those go for 30-50k each, and my sorcerers/operatives get 2-3 for every HM. It's just good raid/flashpoint planning, and you should hear the reaction of some of our operatives the first time they pop that 535 power boost on a boss fight. They're already crit heavy, and the power. boost...downright magical

PvP, I'll be honest--having the 3k ish heal and an armor stim helps me get away from a bad situation on broken Ilum. But broken Ilum is broken Ilum, and that's because in all the chaos and no VOIP in game, the focus fire is kinda' slow and I've got time to use my defensives.

In warzones that are a faceroll/facerollee, they let me last another half second or so or pad my stats across the goal line. In closer matches, they keep me alive while stunned in the acid or fire for another 1/4 second. If I'm trying to 1v1 to cap a turret and win, it means I get to live to see the fully refreshed enemy I just killed taking a quick speeder back to the cap. I will occasionally use them, get away, and get my heals rolling...which still takes me out of the fight for ten or fifteen seconds, IF I don't get immediately re-engaged.

tl:dr #1: Bottom line? My experience is that they're a minor perk/occasional get-out-of-jail in WZs, they keep me ABLE to supply my team in PvE content, and their only real stand-out use is in helping me stay in the game collecting valor and/or harrassing deep into the enemy healers in broken Ilum, in chaotic and disorganized raid-v-raid situations.

tl:dr #2: Press moar buttons; 3k ish health and a 15s armor (or other) boost is not game breaking. I'll make you some for PvE
Before you criticize someone harshly, try and walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they go really postal, you're safely 5000 feet away and they have no shoes.

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
02.19.2012 , 01:07 PM | #156
Quote: Originally Posted by Fonitrus View Post
blue adrenals take 30 mins to craft and you get 1.

to make them viable they need to be made in multiples of 10.

no one will buy a non reusable because no seller is stupid enough to price it to be "affordable" and afordable means less than the materials costs which is about 6K in mission worth and then you have the price of the materials worth on the GTN themselves which can go up to the 30K mark on some servers but average about the 14-16K on my server in total. so on average 20K to MAKE adrenals that are ONE USE ONLY...

so lets say 10% profit margin you sell it at 22K.

is anyone THAT much desperate to fork out 22K for a 15 seconds bonus????

if you could make them in 10s thats about 2K per adrenal in expenses so you can still sell them at 22K for the lot but they are more worthwhile since its only 2200 per adrenal. you get more per WZ win and if that adrenal made the win happen then yey money well spent.

as they are now its either reusable or NOTHING. there is no otehr way.
1. You don't count the costs of the material components on the item's total cost based on the price of the GTN mats. You count the time and effort put into collecting them from missions. This is, realistically, about 30 minutes at level 50 for about 7.5k if you had to send out three companions. This is, of course, only if you used all of the materials you gained in those expeditions on that one adrenal. If that is the case then you reduce the "cost" to fit the number of material components actually used.

This puts our material costs at the real number of around 3.5k.

2. You use the real material cost and mark them up on a percentage determined by how much you feel the 30 minutes of gathering (after that is adjusted based on how many mats you actually used) was worth and what level of item it is.

Usually I do a formula of 1% every 5 minutes of time required to gather the materials, then I look at how long they take to craft and mark an additional 1% every 5 minutes, and then 1% for every 5 levels of item it is. So on average I go for a 18% - 20% markup.

So assuming:
30 minutes of gathering (assuming you used all of the materials in the process of making 1 adrenal)

7,500 credits to do the gathering.

30 minutes of crafting.

Level 50 item.

This comes to a maximum justifiable markup of 22%

This comes to a maximum market price of around 9,700 credits and that is a high estimate.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
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Blackardin's Avatar


Blackardin
02.19.2012 , 01:43 PM | #157
Quote:
So in your raids, are you all biochemists? If not, are you saying all your non-biochemists pop adrenals and medpacs in a limitless fashion? How much do they spend a night for the non-biochemist?
Not sure what you are asking here? We are not quite raiding yet, and won't be able to determine a course of action until this current change is ironed out and ready.

However, in wow and every other game that I've raided in since Everquest, the answer would be that participants did not choose, but were required to have full pots ready, available, and used on every fight. We had addons that would let us know who did not have flasks up. It was a requirement of the guild and with the introduction of guild flasks (cauldrons), we provided them.

In this game, if they are not all bios, the bios will supply them. Guild members will supply mats, bios will turn them. So yes, every member of the raid will have full pots (heals, stims, absorbs) for every fight. The caveat in that is whether the content is built for them or not. If not, they will not be so mandatory.

Does that answer your overall question?
Quote:
Because that is the type of game this will devolve into if reusables stay in the game. And the content was not meant for consumables to be used in this way. In response, they will create content that will account for consumables to be used in this way. Which would mean that if you wanted to do the content, you would need to level a crafting skill to 400 so you could get the utility to do the encounter.
I'm not disagreeing with you in totality here. I see your point. However, my contention is that the need for pots, at least in the raiding game, or top end raiding game, will be absolute and is already built in.

Do I agree with that assessment for normal raiding, pug raiding? No. However, I don't see it as game defining the way addons such as DBM, that dictate every move and attack of the fight, would be. That contention of mine is only valid if pots are made abundant and viably affordable. If they do not accompany the need for pots with accessible and affordable pots they will break the raid game. As I said, I'm more concerned that reusables will break the crafting end game then I am end game raiding.

further, the current change will allow everyone to have reusable pots so I guess the point regarding shutting out non bios will become moot. I think that is why they made the change to begin with.

Quote:
The reason why biochem is so attractive right now is because you have an advantage over those that don't have biochem or content that was never meant for limitless consumables. But if everybody has the same advantage as you and the content is developed to account for the reusables, your advantages would end. The advantage now will become a requirement tomorrow, and we will get new threads popping up saying that it sucks that you need to grind 400 in a crafting skill for utilities that you must have to do the content.
Well, we don't know if it was designed around limitless consumables or not, but yeah, agree. Also, I'm not seeking an advantage, just insuring that I have the tools to get the job done, not unlike gearing up. I see them as just part of my gear. If everyone needs them, I'm good with that. If no one needs them, I'm good with that. Will I always, as a tank, carry them? yes, to be used, as you contended, in an emergency.

Blackardin's Avatar


Blackardin
02.19.2012 , 01:58 PM | #158
Quote:
I think that what some are missing is Chunkie is a BC, he's trying to get the reusable nerfed because it's not making him enough of a profit now. He wouldn't be happy with a balance that allows anyone to use the epic reusable. Which would, in fact, balance BC in the end and give us one very expensive stim - consider it a piece of gear to sell. He wants no reusable because it allows him to drain any non BCs even further, and discourages people from using 'his' profession.

That said, he already stated he's made 20mil off BC, but only 10mil off the others. The other skills need buffed, BC clearly is still profitable even WITH the reusable.
Why would anyone need 30 mil in this game? Why would anyone waste the time earning such? Are they squirrels, packing it away for winter? LOL

I remember people doing this in Wow. They had millions of gold that they never spent. LOL. In total, raiding end game constantly, I never had over 100k. Three expansions later I left the game with like 8 alts and half of that still in the bank.

FobManX's Avatar


FobManX
02.19.2012 , 02:48 PM | #159
Keep reusables, but just make more powerful versions that aren't reusable. The l337 min maxers will use the more powerful ones either way, but those of us who don't sweat every single little point can still stick with Biochem for the convenience of never having to pay for stims/adrenals/medkits.

And I definitely agree with making it so we craft multiples instead of just one at a time for adrenals and medkits.

Manathayria's Avatar


Manathayria
02.19.2012 , 03:01 PM | #160
Quote: Originally Posted by OldSwab View Post
PvE side, if someone has taken biochem and they aren't sharing with the team (as best they are able) then they are gimping their chances, as well as yours. They are your "reusable" source. My tank doesn't start a hard mode without 100k credits worth of consumables, minimum. I picked up the Exotech Power schematic the other day...those go for 30-50k each, and my sorcerers/operatives get 2-3 for every HM. It's just good raid/flashpoint planning, and you should hear the reaction of some of our operatives the first time they pop that 535 power boost on a boss fight. They're already crit heavy, and the power. boost...downright magical
To a point I agree with this, but if an item takes 30m to make, and I'm just joining a pug, I may not want to spend an hour + waiting for consumables to come back off the NPCs... I'm just not. Sorry, but you (the others in group) should have planned better. Part of that better planning would be asking around for biochems and getting people willing to set you up to succeed before you ever hit the LFM. The biochems in guild with you would be a damn good place to start with that, or just asking in trade/general while starting LFM.

That said, IF I do have the right consumables on hand and the right mats to make the group their potions (IE, I as the biochem managed to spend time to make things before getting a group) then yes, I will hand out some potions to the group because us succeeding means I get a higher chance at my gear etc.

However, again, Don't expect the Biochem in group to hand you freebies, and at least be aware enough of what goes into what they're handing you to give them a little to recover base mat cost if they're handing it out like it's candy.

I don't see CT handing out mods/armor/other out at the start of a group knowing it'll help their group making it through, so I really don't see where biochem should be *expected* to do the same.

Again... I think the reusable items are right where they need to be at the moment. The 'best' to use are all consume on use if I remember right, which means only if we're being cheap/don't feel we have time/mats to make the right ones for what we're doing will we not be using consumables. Reusable stims/adrenal are more for leveling/dailys and maybe easier HM.