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Jedi Shadow, Sith Assassin needs a big nerf soon.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Jedi Shadow, Sith Assassin needs a big nerf soon.

bahugboto's Avatar


bahugboto
02.28.2012 , 02:46 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by _Scattered_ View Post
I will admit tank specced shadows are strong, however to say:

"Tank shadow have great dps AND are better tanks than Juggs"

Is just plain fallacy.

My kinetic shadow is geared for dps, he has nearly BiS gear, with ~1600 willpower. While he has guard utility he by no means is a tank, with <17k hp and 500 expertise outside of defence cds he has no more surviability than a merc or a dps PT. Sometimes I am not even wearing a shield.

Furthermore marauders, operatives, pyrotech PT's, pyrotech mercs and hybrid sorcs are all extremely powerful when played well.
You can either gear for more dps or gear for more def, that's your choice, a guardian have the same choice, no difference, the only difference is a shadow is a superior standalone tank with better survivability, not to mention self heals. The class especially the one specced to harnessed shadow has too many useful utilities, in addition to the already overpowering useful specs compared to many of the useless or underwhelming abilities in the Juggernaut spec, either that or the rest of the class in the game needs serious retooling. I am saying that nerfing a shadow instead of radically buffing other classes will give the developers more room to maneuver in the future. For one instance, the heals from TT have to be reduced, the amont of reduction from kinetic ward should be reduced, or halved, the ability to resist interrupts from Harnessed shadow should be removed altogether, even that is just a start, more tweaks will probably be necessary as times go by, but these simple nerfs will at least get the shadow closer to balance, they will still be an overpowering tank/dps with too many useful utilities.

_Scattered_'s Avatar


_Scattered_
02.28.2012 , 03:16 AM | #122
You can't say shadow tanks have both high dps and are the best tanks because that is impossible, it requires 2 different gear sets. Any shadow you come across will not have great dps and great tanking, he will have one or the other or something in between.

Just because the same tree allows for two different play styles doesn't imply something is unbalanced, rather that particular tree is more interesting.

If you really looked closer at the mechanics of tanking you would realise guarded healers is the main problem. And if guarded healers weren't so strong then it would not even be viable for a dps geared kinetic to even use guard.

Besides Juggernaut's make for better tanks, this isn't even up for debate. The reason why Juggernauts are weak is because they can barely break 100k in a wz. Their damage is low that is the only thing that is wrong with them.

As I have said, kinetic shadow are strong, however you are seeing and fighting lots of them because our other trees are not very good. In comparison rare specs/classes are strong as well, how many well played pyro mercs, pyro pt's, operatives, cc hybrid sorcs and marauders have you actually faced?

You may say otherwise (because everyone thinks they are l33t) however my guess is very few. It sound like you play a jugg, and I am all for a buff to jugg tanking tree. However the healers plus the the above mentioned classes are all very powerful. What remains is Juggs and snipers which I do think need buffs.

TheRedNalroni's Avatar


TheRedNalroni
02.28.2012 , 06:07 AM | #123
Darkness - Dark Ward
Not actually useful in PVP as the amount of mods required means that on average with 20 defence you still block only 40% of the time to take only 70% of the damage. Its not fantastic considering the sacrafice to dps is horrendous. at 1.5 second global cooldown is a reduction of 30% damage only vs 1 person, but every additional person beyond 1 does 100% damage, for the major sacrafice in itemisation. In PVP only worth for 1v1 fights and even then its debatable as you lose all burst damage that the assassin relies on to kill.

Deception:
The Nature of the Assassin class is Burst damage in 1v1 situations. 1v1 Is very rare in Warzones. Outside of the first 15 seconds of combat, if the assassin has not killed its target in a 1v1 situation must rely on a 2 minute cooldown to escape. So about 78% of the time in a warzone the assassin is ineffectual. In combat.
No Stealth openers and cooldowns unavailable = dead assassin


I currently pvp with Darkness
Lightening does on average 600-800 damage per ticks (4 ticks) Can be interrrupted - yes even with the talent ive been interrupted many a time, it just stops the faster channel when taking damage. Knockback and abilities such as jolt or kick, knockdows do actually break it and requires another 10 seconds of combat to build up another 3 harnessed darkness and still lack the bonus from wrecklessness. Often only used when the wrecklessness is up and 3 stacks of harnessed darkness (3 shocks- considering cooldown this is a long time in combat). Yes it heals but not an incredible amount, especially when it can be disrupted losing the 3 stacks of harnessed darkness and wrecklessness cooldown - Force lightening becomes poor and the heal pitiful. (ANd thats with Full battlemaster modded for crit.

Slow is only through an ability Force slow, our lightening doesnt apply a slow like that from the Sorcerers Force lightening. Most classes get a slow.
Spamming force Lightening is terrible. Horrendous ineffectual and LOL.
Its by no means anywhere Tracer Missile.

We cannot stealth when needed. The amount of time you in pvp can use the heal to full ability every class gets is how often we can stealth. We cannot stealth in combat. If any of our team mates are in combat it often keeps us in combat. We need to rely on Force cloak to quickly stealth which is on a 2 minute cooldown. Dots and bleeds from Marauders take us out straight away, unlike the awesome stealth although limited time they receive but with abilities such as charge and terrain can often be more successful at evading that Assassins.
Assassin to stealth must also use Force shroud, Force speed to escape. This is because the nature of Force means the longer the fight the less chance of surviving, where as with maraduers, the continued build up of rage or focus continues to provide sustained dps.
As fights prolong, the success of the assassin deteriates and often falls in favour of other classes.

Force pull high on the Darkness tree as well. Best pure tank? Youve never fought a Vanguard tank or powertech?

Mobility? We have no ranged abilities beyond 10 feet with the exception of force lightening once every 2 minutes which should be kept for 3 stacks of harnessed darkness... We have to run around terrain, cant leap up to the target to engage in melee, and get kited knock backed from most ranged classes. Leaving us vulnerable and dead before we get to the target without stealth.
2nd best self healer? I come out of a game with barely 15000 heals doing 112000 damage on average from a good game in which i can apply most dps. I have 17000 health, in a 20 minute game thats barely a full health bar.

Wont comment about Shadow, I was understanding it was a missor to the Darkness specced assassin of which you are referring mainly about.
300k damage? erm not a chance with darkness of which your referring to with Force pull and Dark ward.

300k yes with Madness as you just dot every target you see with 2-3 dots. Its a boring tab dot tab dot class of which is squishy and dead very quickly unless a one on one in melee as they seriously do a lot of damage - it is after all a dps tree in comparison to the Tank Darkness tree.

The Assassin your are refferring to here with these abilities must be level 75 to actually have Force pull dark ward (and seriously if theyre using that theyre not anywhere shield more than 15% of the time for a reduction of 10% damage if they want to pull off 300k damage.



In the end I already feel in most Warzones Im ready to reroll to Marauder with their survivability, Mobility and awesome damage output all in one tree.

I suggest never ever call for a nerf on a class until you have spent the time playing one and pvping with it to Battlemaster level and certainly know and understand it and where its abilities come from.

If they nerf assassin any more, I will be rerolling to a ranged class or certainly a Marauder. If not deleting the game i have 22 days played on Assasin alone.

bahugboto's Avatar


bahugboto
02.28.2012 , 06:19 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by TheRedNalroni View Post
Darkness - Dark Ward
Not actually useful in PVP as the amount of mods required means that on average with 20 defence you still block only 40% of the time to take only 70% of the damage. Its not fantastic considering the sacrafice to dps is horrendous. at 1.5 second global cooldown is a reduction of 30% damage only vs 1 person, but every additional person beyond 1 does 100% damage, for the major sacrafice in itemisation. In PVP only worth for 1v1 fights and even then its debatable as you lose all burst damage that the assassin relies on to kill.

Deception:
The Nature of the Assassin class is Burst damage in 1v1 situations. 1v1 Is very rare in Warzones. Outside of the first 15 seconds of combat, if the assassin has not killed its target in a 1v1 situation must rely on a 2 minute cooldown to escape. So about 78% of the time in a warzone the assassin is ineffectual. In combat.
No Stealth openers and cooldowns unavailable = dead assassin


I currently pvp with Darkness
Lightening does on average 600-800 damage per ticks (4 ticks) Can be interrrupted - yes even with the talent ive been interrupted many a time, it just stops the faster channel when taking damage. Knockback and abilities such as jolt or kick, knockdows do actually break it and requires another 10 seconds of combat to build up another 3 harnessed darkness and still lack the bonus from wrecklessness. Often only used when the wrecklessness is up and 3 stacks of harnessed darkness (3 shocks- considering cooldown this is a long time in combat). Yes it heals but not an incredible amount, especially when it can be disrupted losing the 3 stacks of harnessed darkness and wrecklessness cooldown - Force lightening becomes poor and the heal pitiful. (ANd thats with Full battlemaster modded for crit.

Slow is only through an ability Force slow, our lightening doesnt apply a slow like that from the Sorcerers Force lightening. Most classes get a slow.
Spamming force Lightening is terrible. Horrendous ineffectual and LOL.
Its by no means anywhere Tracer Missile.

We cannot stealth when needed. The amount of time you in pvp can use the heal to full ability every class gets is how often we can stealth. We cannot stealth in combat. If any of our team mates are in combat it often keeps us in combat. We need to rely on Force cloak to quickly stealth which is on a 2 minute cooldown. Dots and bleeds from Marauders take us out straight away, unlike the awesome stealth although limited time they receive but with abilities such as charge and terrain can often be more successful at evading that Assassins.
Assassin to stealth must also use Force shroud, Force speed to escape. This is because the nature of Force means the longer the fight the less chance of surviving, where as with maraduers, the continued build up of rage or focus continues to provide sustained dps.
As fights prolong, the success of the assassin deteriates and often falls in favour of other classes.

Force pull high on the Darkness tree as well. Best pure tank? Youve never fought a Vanguard tank or powertech?

Mobility? We have no ranged abilities beyond 10 feet with the exception of force lightening once every 2 minutes which should be kept for 3 stacks of harnessed darkness... We have to run around terrain, cant leap up to the target to engage in melee, and get kited knock backed from most ranged classes. Leaving us vulnerable and dead before we get to the target without stealth.
2nd best self healer? I come out of a game with barely 15000 heals doing 112000 damage on average from a good game in which i can apply most dps. I have 17000 health, in a 20 minute game thats barely a full health bar.

Wont comment about Shadow, I was understanding it was a missor to the Darkness specced assassin of which you are referring mainly about.
300k damage? erm not a chance with darkness of which your referring to with Force pull and Dark ward.

300k yes with Madness as you just dot every target you see with 2-3 dots. Its a boring tab dot tab dot class of which is squishy and dead very quickly unless a one on one in melee as they seriously do a lot of damage - it is after all a dps tree in comparison to the Tank Darkness tree.

The Assassin your are refferring to here with these abilities must be level 75 to actually have Force pull dark ward (and seriously if theyre using that theyre not anywhere shield more than 15% of the time for a reduction of 10% damage if they want to pull off 300k damage.



In the end I already feel in most Warzones Im ready to reroll to Marauder with their survivability, Mobility and awesome damage output all in one tree.

I suggest never ever call for a nerf on a class until you have spent the time playing one and pvping with it to Battlemaster level and certainly know and understand it and where its abilities come from.

If they nerf assassin any more, I will be rerolling to a ranged class or certainly a Marauder. If not deleting the game i have 22 days played on Assasin alone.
Another denial thread, try fighting on switsure PVP warzones where the pvp is at a very high level and see which class ends up with over 12 medal and highest kill ratio most of the time then come back and talk, anyways i can punch holes into every one of your flawed, and bias argument playing down the shadow's abilities, but i have already done so many times in my previous post, and dont need to do so again.

bahugboto's Avatar


bahugboto
02.28.2012 , 06:30 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by _Scattered_ View Post
You can't say shadow tanks have both high dps and are the best tanks because that is impossible, it requires 2 different gear sets. Any shadow you come across will not have great dps and great tanking, he will have one or the other or something in between.

Just because the same tree allows for two different play styles doesn't imply something is unbalanced, rather that particular tree is more interesting.

If you really looked closer at the mechanics of tanking you would realise guarded healers is the main problem. And if guarded healers weren't so strong then it would not even be viable for a dps geared kinetic to even use guard.

Besides Juggernaut's make for better tanks, this isn't even up for debate. The reason why Juggernauts are weak is because they can barely break 100k in a wz. Their damage is low that is the only thing that is wrong with them.

As I have said, kinetic shadow are strong, however you are seeing and fighting lots of them because our other trees are not very good. In comparison rare specs/classes are strong as well, how many well played pyro mercs, pyro pt's, operatives, cc hybrid sorcs and marauders have you actually faced?

You may say otherwise (because everyone thinks they are l33t) however my guess is very few. It sound like you play a jugg, and I am all for a buff to jugg tanking tree. However the healers plus the the above mentioned classes are all very powerful. What remains is Juggs and snipers which I do think need buffs.
Juggs and snipers need buffs, juggs need a heavy revamp to their defensive viability and both need more force attacks because the current balance damage mechanics and mitigation types completely throw the game off balance but Shadow need a dead serious nerf, i know a broken mechanic when i see one. Like i said harnessed shadow must be nerfed completely, remove the invulnerability to interrupts, reduce heals from 3-2%, that's a good start. Next since the round the clock shielding of Kinetic ward is so bad like some of these folks claim, we remove that as well or set it's cooldown to 1 minute or something, and see how these same players cry over how unbelievably good having a shield up that could mitigate white damage almost 60% of the time is. Anyone who think this is not one of the most powerful shields in the game in combination with force invulnerability is lying to himself. It's a constant shield and since it's so bad lets make it have a minute cooldown and see how you cope without it. The only class that i could see giving a Sin tank a run for it's money are the dps Sorc class because virtually all it's damage are force attacks. But still a shadow could probably still handily win with the right strats. And it's always viable for DPS kinetic to use guard, only a rather newbie player will think otherwise, not being harsh with you but the 3 protection medals are almost always in the bag for a top tier warzone shadow tank, the 50k is rarer because the shadow tanks are too busy chasing their dps medal, and healing medal to bother with guarding all the time, besides ruining their stealh.

upzie's Avatar


upzie
02.28.2012 , 07:31 AM | #126
<3 how your posts keep beeing completely ignorant, its a treat for us reading the forums, keep up the good work.
Upzie, Assassin | Disciples of Zdupz | Tomb of Freedon Nadd
I'm proberly better than you

_Scattered_'s Avatar


_Scattered_
02.28.2012 , 07:31 AM | #127
The shield is minor, just goes to show how little you know. Our shield chance is 35% at 24% absorb, which is pathetic considering 80% of incoming damage in non white.

Nor have you seen the potential of the classes I have mentioned above. So please spare me the bs until you have been destroyed by a skilled marauder, a pyro merc, a pyro PT (your jugg will melt like butter), a skilled operative and a skilled cc hybrid sorc. All of these a rare encounters because 90% of the players in this game have no idea.

Furthermore do not bring medals into this, I could not give a damn about them. Take them all away from me and I would not care.

FalcoLombardi's Avatar


FalcoLombardi
02.28.2012 , 07:49 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Aelaias View Post
Shadows are vastly superior to guardians but that doesn't mean they are overpowered. Guardians need plenty of help. Shadows are fine where they are.
I always beat my friend's Shadow in a 1 vs 1 duel
......|||
======= God Bless
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bahugboto's Avatar


bahugboto
02.28.2012 , 10:00 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by _Scattered_ View Post
The shield is minor, just goes to show how little you know. Our shield chance is 35% at 24% absorb, which is pathetic considering 80% of incoming damage in non white.

Nor have you seen the potential of the classes I have mentioned above. So please spare me the bs until you have been destroyed by a skilled marauder, a pyro merc, a pyro PT (your jugg will melt like butter), a skilled operative and a skilled cc hybrid sorc. All of these a rare encounters because 90% of the players in this game have no idea.

Furthermore do not bring medals into this, I could not give a damn about them. Take them all away from me and I would not care.
It's obvious you are not anywhere near endgame yet, an endgame gear will up your shield chance to around 60% and absorb to 40%, that is a big difference and a game changer, so as i said if you think it's that insignificant, let's remove it altogether, as a shadow tank you have enough survivability with heals, force mitigation and another proc shield ability + your slow ccs kites and other utilities to survive, so if it's insignificant lets petition to remove kinetic ward altogether and just see how much of a difference a 60% chance to absorb with 40% damage mitigation is.

_Scattered_'s Avatar


_Scattered_
02.28.2012 , 01:14 PM | #130
No, I am a rank 75 shadow.

In full pve tank gear I have 55% shield chance with 30% absorb, due to high defence stats (which are better than shield stats for mitigation).

In that gear a shadow will do no damage.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. My shadow in full dps gear has 35% shield chance and 24% absorb, which is the baseline.