The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

I'm going to reiterate what I posted in the first thread with some more specific updates on what people have said in both threads... My original post on this can be found here at the bottom of the page.

Assumptions I'm using for math:

1. Willpower: 1737
2. Force Power + Power: 1442
3. Crit/Surge/Alacrity: 410/153/346 (values from the spreadsheet BiS.)
4. DPS numbers are an "ideal" fight
5. Rotations are also "ideal"

A quick note too about the specs I'm using (I'm not going to go into full TK because I know absolutely nothing about TK past the 4th tier):

First - a standard 3/7/31 build for balance dps.

Second - a standard 0/13/28 build for hybrid dps.

Third - "full cc" build (the dreaded 0/20/21).

This isn't the build I linked in the OP. Yes you could use a build like this but you can pick up ALL of the CC talents with any of the builds I linked while not dropping your DPS this low. Here's the Sage version. Please note that "Psychokinesis" appears to be bugged on TORHead and doesn't reflect it's Sorcerer counterpart.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1

Fourth - a dps/cc build (0/19/22).

This is a bit more like the specs I linked. I still don't fully agree with putting points for a 1% self heal but like I said in the OP the build is flexible and allows for customization.

And last, a Tidal Force dps build (0/19/22).

Again you're taking unnecessary points in talents that aren't nearly as useful.

Up front - here are the updated dps values for these builds:

3/7/31 - 1275 dps
0/13/28 - 1326 (1268 for above build. 1326 build is this one AFAIK.)
0/20/21 (cc) - 1063
0/19/22 (dps) - 1216
0/19/22 (tidal force)- 1216

[color=red] So in the build closest to(but not exactly) to one of the builds I posted was a loss of about 8-9% DPS from your highest standstill DPS build. I'd wager that the difference would be even lower if you used the three exact specs I linked.[/color=red]

(Note - a full TK build reports as 1285 dps.)

I should also note to maximize for the 1326 build, you must be getting a full 18 second Weakened Mind, as well as forgo the instant force lift and 20% buff to your bubble. More on that later.

The OP alleges this list of utilities (#4 missing in original):



**** I'm going to add the 2 sec root from Sever Force.

Not all of these abilities are available at once. Also, I think we can dispense with #14 because the capacity for self-healing is shared among 3/8 classes in the game (sage, commando, scoundrel), not to mention Guarded By The Force, which is essentially a self-heal given their dots' healing.

More notes on bubble. The values above are incorrect. The general thought at the moment is that trauma and expertise do not affect bubble value. The long and short of this is that expertise could not affect the value if trauma also did not (because expertise healing is trauma-ignore, not more throughput). This would make bubble values too low for anyone but BiS geared to get the 2.5k heal medal for a bubble.

Current estimates of bubble values are between about 3.3 and 3.7k. The values from the BiS assumptions in the spreadsheet linked above yield a 3310 bubble. Popping a 380 power trinket with those would give you a 3564 bubble.

Now, the meat and potatoes...

First, it's of critical importance to note that no Sage build can take advantage of all of the above utilities. In fact, without severely gimping one's dps, no Sage build can take advantage of most of them.

Second, the two most-complained about talents (the aoe mez and aoe root) are not that useful. The aoe mez is good for one thing - saving the Sage's butt. It does that pretty well, but in doing so, harms the rest of the team because it builds lots of resolve. The aoe root is pretty good in some circumstances, but because it is tied to a knockback, it will not work on targets with full resolve.

Third, many of the utilities mentioned don't apply to all classes. Roots and knockbacks are useless against ranged classes who can stand still and nuke you and who never come into knockback range. Almost without exclusion, the Sage's utility talents *being complained about here* are useful against melee - the Sage's natural sworn enemy.

Fourth, the OP ignores the balancing game that one must take to have access to all this utility, but still put out decent damage. This point is where I focus most attention.

Looking above, you can see the dps values for the different specs. Note that the two cc-heavy specs fall well short of full dps specs (by 20% and 8.3% respectively). Considering the immense loss of the pure cc spec, I'm not really sure there is much point in talking about it - it's a cc machine, nothing else.

That said, the fact that a 0/19/22 dps spec retains the cc ability merits consideration.

I believe the points I made above concerning the type of target on which the gained cc is useful stand. Sages need tools to escape melee, plain and simple. A good marauder or operative is a real pain in the rear to escape from alive. Personally, I find marauders to be more of a pain than operatives.

That said, taking the two aoe cc talents from the TK tree away from Sages probably won't hurt them much. But it probably won't help the enemy teams much either. The root from knockback is useful, yes. The aoe mez is useful to the Sage, but harms the team overall.

The question remains then, whether hybrid specs really are that overpowered. The answer, I believe, is - not really. Were they in fact vastly overpowered, I would expect to see a Sage doing 1.5-2x the damage of other classes, and this just is not the case. I will admit that the skill:damage ratio on a sage has a much lower curve than other classes, but after a certain point, skilled players of other classes are on par.

On a related note - the discrepancy in DPS seems to widen with gear, so for the majority of players, a hybrid spec is not going to pull as far ahead in pure dps numbers.

Also, I'd like to briefly dispel the notion that Sages "mash one button" and faceroll. Whoever started this idea is a complete moron. In a 15-sec rotation, a hybrid Sage will use 6 or 7 different abilities depending on procs. For a full Balance Sage, it's 7. Sages do not stand there and mash TK Throw - doing so is a HUGE dps loss.

Last but certainly not least - some info about my Sage:

I currently use a 0/13/28 build, and I enjoy the playstyle very much, especially when Imps are dumb and gather in groups for me. That said, I play the more survivable version of the 13/28 build, picking up the self-heal, instant force lift, and bubble buff and taking the lower dps. I'm seriously considering switching to a full Balance build, if for no other reason than to show the nubs out there that hybrids are not really doing crazy damage like everyone claims.

Sorry for the wall of text.

TL;DR : No dps sage worth their salt would ever be able to access all of the available cc talents. Many of them don't actually apply to non-melee classes. And the dps difference is not that big for hybrid/full-31.

lol, It looks like someone got owned and decided to complain about it.

Ok

Also thank you for posting that guide. I re-spec my talent points to reflect the very same thing's you are complaining about in PVP and now I own.

Isn't this contradictory to what you JUST typed a second ago in the same post?

trainwreck of ignorance and misinformation

Still flogging this horse?

This trainwreck of ignorance and misinformation is still here!?!?!

Please clarify.