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Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing
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Eileithia's Avatar


Eileithia
02.27.2012 , 01:56 PM | #261
Quote: Originally Posted by RuQu View Post
  1. They can pull a friendly target out of a bad situation, whether that is standing in fire, melee range of a mob that has turned on them, or some unique fight mechanic. No other healer can match that.
  2. The have an instant HoT that has an initial heal, with a 6s cooldown. Commandos have a 21s cooldown on an instant heal with no HoT. Scoundrels have a very weak instant with no cooldown but that needs UH to be cast, or an instant HoT that is very weak and not an emergency tool.
  3. They have an instant cast shield that prevents ability pushback and fully absorbs incoming damage. Commandos have a 10% DR shield, that requires burning a cooldown, then activating the button for their AoE, then targeting that AoE on the ground near the person, and then hoping it applies to who they want since it doesn't have smart healing. Scoundrels have nothing of the sort (that I'm aware of).
  4. Sages have a speed boost when they apply their shield, which means if someone is slow to get out of fire, they can shield them to prevent damage and also help them get out of the bad faster. No other class has anything of the sort.

Commandos have some great tools for single-target healing, and some nice buffs on some of their abilities, like an Armor buff on AP (which Sages also get but Scoundrels dont), and their healing buff to three random people when they AoE (unique). Even so, as the better of the non-Sage classes, they still lack any remarkable "screw-up correction" abilities. Scoundrels are even worse off.
Yes, Sages have a big toolkit, but some of these on your list are simply nice to haves and not game-changing by any means.

Number 1 - HIGHLY situational. In most cases it's better off to shield/heal them and let them keep DPSing. If it's melee yanking them out over healing them is only to ever be used if it's the only thing that will save their life, and 9 times out of 10 you're better off blowing that GCD on a heal.

Number 2 - The so-called "Uber" Sage instant is ~1400-1600 HP front loaded only if it crits (In a mix of columi/rakata gear). Normally it's about 600-800 front-end with a 300-350 every 3 seconds over time. On a person with 15K+ HP it's not even noticable when it goes off. Also, not life saving if someone is being focused down. You're better off casting a big heal (1.5-2.5 sec cast depending on the heal)

I'll give you number 3, it can save lives, but also doesn't give HP back so you still need to decide if it's better to shield or heal.

I wouldn't call number 4 a bonus. You need to spec into it, and your points are better spent elsewhere increaseing your base healing, or adding to your shield. 10% run speed buff means nothing compared to where your points should be spent.. If you really need to get someone out that bad you revert to number 1. You don't need to rely on the other player paying attention that way.

Zapher's Avatar


Zapher
02.27.2012 , 02:09 PM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by Eileithia View Post
I wouldn't call number 4 a bonus. You need to spec into it, and your points are better spent elsewhere increaseing your base healing, or adding to your shield. 10% run speed buff means nothing compared to where your points should be spent.. If you really need to get someone out that bad you revert to number 1. You don't need to rely on the other player paying attention that way.
I wish I had a healing tree where a run speed skill isn't considered worthwhile compared to all the other great skills.

Just goes to show the massive dearth in quality between the Medic and Corruption tree.

Endusima's Avatar


Endusima
02.27.2012 , 02:17 PM | #263
Quote: Originally Posted by Eileithia View Post
I'll give you number 3, it can save lives, but also doesn't give HP back so you still need to decide if it's better to shield or heal.
That kinda sums up the whole post for me. As an operative I do not have any options at all beside healing. I can't pull, I can't shield and I can't apply frontload healing and hots at the same time.

Eileithia's Avatar


Eileithia
02.27.2012 , 02:24 PM | #264
Quote: Originally Posted by Zapher View Post
I wish I had a healing tree where a run speed skill isn't considered worthwhile compared to all the other great skills.

Just goes to show the massive dearth in quality between the Medic and Corruption tree.
The sheild increase isn't part of the healing tree, it's tier 2 of the telekenetic (DPS) tree which means you need to spend 7 points to get it (5 to get to the skill and 2 to cap it out)
and the 10% buff is for 6 seconds (Capped) when you cast armor, not a perma increase while FA is active. That's why you're better spending those points elsewhere. like increasing willpower by 6% (Out of another DPS tree, not healing tree)

Also, more skills doesn't always = better. you still need to proactively chose what to cast on who and when so you can optimize force which has the lowest regen rate unless you try to stick to a force positive rotation which can in most cases kill your group/raid on hard content. We can burst, but we can't burst forever, and running out of power is still a real threat unless you and your raid are paying attention.

RuQu's Avatar


RuQu
02.27.2012 , 02:29 PM | #265
Quote: Originally Posted by Eileithia View Post
Yes, Sages have a big toolkit, but some of these on your list are simply nice to haves and not game-changing by any means.
...
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but that's what makes them utility abilities and not core heals.

You talk about not needing the speed boost on Force Armor because you can just use the pull ability. If you have redundant utility, why was it not spread around? I'm sure Scoundrels would love to have Emergency Medpac apply a run speed boost (cause, you know, when ya gotta go ya gotta go).

And the larger toolkit doesn't just apply to their utility abilities.

The power of Salvation vs Kolto Bomb or Kolto Cloud has been examined to death.

They have the standard two tier heal setup: big, slow and efficient vs weak, fast, and expensive. If they have the time, they case Deliverance, if not you zip off a quick Benevolence (or you would if the utility of Force Armor didn't make it a better bet for that 1.5s).

Commandos have no fast heal. Our fastest heal is Adv Probe, but AP is on a 9s cooldown and part of the core rotation, so is generally not available. Likewise, Bacta Infusion is instant, but because it is free it is kept on cooldown (21s) to help keep up healing while maintaining high ammo. If someone needs a fast heal right now, we have no "oh crap, guess I'll pay for this expensive ability to save them" heal. Neither do Scoundrels, as the closest they have to match that is Kolto Pack, which requires both Energy and a stack of UH. Instead these two classes are forced to stack alacrity to get their heals fast enough to meet that need, but that makes all of their heals, all the time, less resource efficient. All due to the lack of a basic tool.
Brushing off the dust on my Assault Cannon. Time to get back in the fight.

RuQu's Avatar


RuQu
02.27.2012 , 02:35 PM | #266
Quote: Originally Posted by Eileithia View Post
The sheild increase isn't part of the healing tree, it's tier 2 of the telekenetic (DPS) tree which means you need to spend 7 points to get it (5 to get to the skill and 2 to cap it out)
and the 10% buff is for 6 seconds (Capped) when you cast armor, not a perma increase while FA is active. That's why you're better spending those points elsewhere. like increasing willpower by 6% (Out of another DPS tree, not healing tree)

Also, more skills doesn't always = better. you still need to proactively chose what to cast on who and when so you can optimize force which has the lowest regen rate unless you try to stick to a force positive rotation which can in most cases kill your group/raid on hard content. We can burst, but we can't burst forever, and running out of power is still a real threat unless you and your raid are paying attention.
It's only a 2pt talent to increase Force Armor. Or were you passing on the extra 100 Force and 9% cost reduction to all abilities?

This build gets you willpower, extra force, 9% cost reduction, speed boost, and armor boost. All you pass on is 4% reduced damage to yourself (Commandos commonly skip the same) and the debuff removal buff (again often skipped by Commandos).

You are right, more skills are not always better. There is such a thing as too much food as well, but good luck using that argument to get a starving man to stop eyeing your second footlong sub.
Brushing off the dust on my Assault Cannon. Time to get back in the fight.

Zapher's Avatar


Zapher
02.27.2012 , 02:40 PM | #267
Quote: Originally Posted by Eileithia View Post
Also, more skills doesn't always = better. you still need to proactively chose what to cast on who and when so you can optimize force which has the lowest regen rate unless you try to stick to a force positive rotation which can in most cases kill your group/raid on hard content. We can burst, but we can't burst forever, and running out of power is still a real threat unless you and your raid are paying attention.
You say that like choice is a bad thing.

I would love to be able to choose what skills to use and when to use them - it might actually bring the Medic skill-cap out of the gutter. Currently, the my toolbox feels like it belongs to a non-heal spec hybrid.

Also, if you feel running out of resource is a 'threat', then wow...just wow. Try having it be an almost certainty if things don't go exactly as planned.

I'm just still in awe that this thread is still going. The imbalance in healing, on every level (be it raw output or utility), is so obvious and its effect is so noticeable (Medics are all but extinct) that anyone who possibly tries arguing against it must be willfully ignorant to the game they're playing.

Eileithia's Avatar


Eileithia
02.27.2012 , 02:41 PM | #268
Quote: Originally Posted by RuQu View Post
It's only a 2pt talent to increase Force Armor. Or were you passing on the extra 100 Force and 9% cost reduction to all abilities?

This build gets you willpower, extra force, 9% cost reduction, speed boost, and armor boost. All you pass on is 4% reduced damage to yourself (Commandos commonly skip the same) and the debuff removal buff (again often skipped by Commandos).

You are right, more skills are not always better. There is such a thing as too much food as well, but good luck using that argument to get a starving man to stop eyeing your second footlong sub.
Yes, FA increase is only 2 point talent, but I was pointing out it's not part of the healing tree, it's in the DPS tree in the 2nd tier, so you need to spend 5 points in that tree to get to the 2nd tier, then 2 more to cap out the talent.

Just stating it's not part of the healing tree is all. Like all other healing classes we're better off spending points outside the healing tree than using it on abilities in our healing tree that most will consider a waste of points.

RuQu's Avatar


RuQu
02.27.2012 , 02:48 PM | #269
Quote: Originally Posted by Eileithia View Post
Yes, FA increase is only 2 point talent, but I was pointing out it's not part of the healing tree, it's in the DPS tree in the 2nd tier, so you need to spend 5 points in that tree to get to the 2nd tier, then 2 more to cap out the talent.

Just stating it's not part of the healing tree is all. Like all other healing classes we're better off spending points outside the healing tree than using it on abilities in our healing tree that most will consider a waste of points.
That's standard though. Commandos take a skill in the second tier of Gunnery for 3% extra crit, and often one to reduce the cost of a dps ability (making it free if we use another cooldown), and many take points in the third tree as well.

Calling it a 7 point talent when the 5 prereqs are all obvious choices and part of the standard cookie cutter build falsely inflates the cost. In fact, you would get the Force Armor boost no matter what, and the question becomes to take 1 of the two points out of the speed boost for Restoration or not.
Brushing off the dust on my Assault Cannon. Time to get back in the fight.

Eileithia's Avatar


Eileithia
02.27.2012 , 03:07 PM | #270
Quote: Originally Posted by Zapher View Post
You say that like choice is a bad thing.

I would love to be able to choose what skills to use and when to use them - it might actually bring the Medic skill-cap out of the gutter. Currently, the my toolbox feels like it belongs to a non-heal spec hybrid.

Also, if you feel running out of resource is a 'threat', then wow...just wow. Try having it be an almost certainty if things don't go exactly as planned.

I'm just still in awe that this thread is still going. The imbalance in healing, on every level (be it raw output or utility), is so obvious and its effect is so noticeable (Medics are all but extinct) that anyone who possibly tries arguing against it must be willfully ignorant to the game they're playing.
I'm in no way arguing that Merc/Com, Ops/Sc healing need love, and they've already stated that "Changes are coming". I'm just trying to point out that it's not all sunshine and lollypops on the Sage either. ESPECIALLY on the AE healing side. I personally think the Sage AE is completely OP compared to the others, but if we can't stop for 2 seconds to cast it we're as SOL as you are.

And Yes, sometimes too much choice is a bad thing, with the long cast times and cooldowns in our kit, blowing a GCD on utility instead of a heal can be the difference between sucess and failure. If we're in a situation where we are constantly on the run, we have 2 options. Bubble (which doesn't give back HP) and a Hot with a 6sec cooldown. They sound awesome in theory, but try running Mentor in Directive 7 HM as a sage and compare that to a Merc and let me know how it works out.

As for going out of power. When it happens on a sage it will stop you dead in your tracks with NOTHING to get you back. If we Sac without Resplendance we can easily kill our selves if there's AE damage, and it slows our regen even further. We have to blow 3 gcd's to get power back and that's only when we crit on healing trance. Even with conveyance buff its still possible to not crit on healing trance. Both Merc/Com, Ops/Sc have emergencies in these situations that the Sorc/Sage does not.

Anyhow.. I'm not trying to say that we don't have tools that others do not, I'm just trying to point out that even with these tools we still have our issues, and one of them being too many tools. I also think the other two healing classes need boosts in some areas to help with AE healing, but Merc/Com are still the strongest single target healers in the game and Ops/Sc probably have the most issues that need to be addressed.