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"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Suggestion Box
"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

AzKnc's Avatar


AzKnc
02.16.2012 , 01:46 PM | #151
Quote: Originally Posted by VanorDM View Post
Yes they would. That's not really something that can be disputed. If the option exists people will be expected to use it.
You can say yes as much as you like dude, but the reasons in my reply and well.. wow's reality beg to differ.

There are people playing wow without dual spec and they do just fine. Ie, not affected. Fact.
AzK - Jaded - The Red Eclipse
We're not in the 90's anymore.
Pro Dungeon tool. Pro Cross server. Pro Dual AC. Pro Dual spec.

tazdirector's Avatar


tazdirector
02.16.2012 , 01:46 PM | #152
Quote:
Inquisitors and Hunters now have 3 roles they can fill vs 2 roles of Warrior and Agent. The more versatile classes will be in more demand to exclusion of others as well as stealing loot from others. And you know this will happen.
I think that's a concern more based in speculation than in reality.

In WoW, you didn't see raid teams full of ALL Druids or ALL Paladins. The primary reason: every class brings about a different set of buffs/debuffs that help the team overall.

Bioware has planned accordingly and given each CORE class (not AC by the way), it's own set of buffs and debuffs to promote diversity among operation team roster.

Quote:
About the paid change, no thanks. And nobody here is asking to change because of a mistake, people want to be allowed to change for guild/raid balance issues, utility, preference to play a single character and not having to roll 2 to play what are basically just different specs. Nobody wants to change "because they made a mistake".
Exactly.

Quote:
They are different classes. A sorc and an assasin play completely different, have different resources, different skills, etc. Using the "repeated" storyline as an excuse is pretty weak too.
Wouldn't you also say that a BODYGUARD Mercenary and an ARSENAL Mercenary play differently? Or what about a DARKNESS Assassin and a DECEPTION Assassin (last I checked, tanks don't stand behind bosses too often).

And in reality, don't both Sorcerers and Assassins use Force as their resource? And Marauders and Juggernauts use Rage as their resource?

And yes, while the different ACs do have different skills within their specialization, they also share the EXACT same Core Skills.

And...oh please, once again, read my posts and link to where my "excuse" is a "repeated storyline".

VanorDM's Avatar


VanorDM
02.16.2012 , 01:47 PM | #153
Quote: Originally Posted by AzKnc View Post
By your reasoning, a feral druid
How a class in a different MMO works is simply not in any way meaningful to how the classes in this MMO work. So the fact that druids exist in WoW means nothing in this discussion.

VanorDM's Avatar


VanorDM
02.16.2012 , 01:48 PM | #154
Quote: Originally Posted by AzKnc View Post
You can say yes as much as you like dude, but the reasons in my reply and well.. wow's reality beg to differ.
So can you, and I'm pretty sure people in WoW are effected, if they play a priest and don't have a healer spec then they are going to have issues finding groups looking for a healer, if they don't agree to change it.

So yeah, they are effected, because of what people around them will expect them to do.

Allow people to change classes, and I define Class based on what Bioware has said is a class, and you remove options and choice from the game, period.

VanorDM's Avatar


VanorDM
02.16.2012 , 01:51 PM | #155
Quote: Originally Posted by tazdirector View Post
And yes, while the different ACs do have different skills within their specialization, they also share the EXACT same Core Skills.
No they do not share the same Core skills. They share some skills, but the core skills on my Guardian are not the same as the core skills on a Sentinel.

But based on that logic, you should be able to conver a Warlock into a Mage in WoW because they use the same basic mechanics, same mana system, same armor, ect...

Raximillian's Avatar


Raximillian
02.16.2012 , 01:53 PM | #156
Quote: Originally Posted by AzKnc View Post
By your reasoning, a feral druid, a balance druid, and a resto druid, are 3 different classes, they play completly differently and use different resources and mechanic.

The only thing that makes a druid a single class with 3 specs, and a swtor class a class with two other similar classes within that can't be respecced, is a TERRIBLE design choice.
Yes, I would consider them a different class. I do not like how they work in WoW. I do like how they work in here. A healer mercenary, and a DPS mercenary pretty much work the same way, they just have a few different abilities, and talents to make those abilities work (heat reduction, more efficiency, etc). So a healer merc and a DPS merc still feels like the same class.

That does not happen in WoW. A feral druid and a boomkin feel like completely different classes. And they play completely different as well. Blizzard also has 3 times as many headaches trying to balance them, and run into 3 times as many issues.

AzKnc's Avatar


AzKnc
02.16.2012 , 01:54 PM | #157
Quote: Originally Posted by VanorDM View Post
'

So can you, and I'm pretty sure people in WoW are effected, if they don't have a healer spec then they are going to have issues finding groups looking for a healer, if they don't agree to change it.
And HOW does that affect you exactly? Without ac switching you wouldn't be able to find groups looking for the role you cannot perform, while with ac switching you wouldn't be able to find groups looking for the role you CHOSE to not perform.

The only difference there is that in the first scenario you simply can't join that group, in the second one you chose not to.

Maybe it's time to start making some sense and rethink your arguments carefully?

Also i find this rather amusing
Quote: Originally Posted by VanorDM View Post
Allow people to change classes, and I define Class based on what Bioware has said is a class, and you remove options and choice from the game, period.
If bioware came to me with an apple and told me it was a coconut, i'd say Nope. It's an apple. When faced with a terribly retarded design choice, i'd rather point out its stupidity than embrace it.
AzK - Jaded - The Red Eclipse
We're not in the 90's anymore.
Pro Dungeon tool. Pro Cross server. Pro Dual AC. Pro Dual spec.

tazdirector's Avatar


tazdirector
02.16.2012 , 02:04 PM | #158
Quote:
Yes they would. That's not really something that can be disputed. If the option exists people will be expected to use it.
I'm not quite certain why allowing people options to change is viewed so negatively. At present, we ARE allowed to change Talent Trees within an AC and yet no one seems to have an issue with that.

Let me ask the same question in a different light: Let's say, for example, that Carnage Marauder DPS was the FotM for operations. Annihilation Marauders would be expected to re-spec to Carnage for their operation team (or at least try it to see the difference).

Is it wrong to ask players to try and maximize their characters IF (please note the emphasis) they are involved in end-game activities where sometimes, every percentage of HP, DPS, avoidance/defense or HPS can be the difference?

Again...using my foundation that ACs are simply another layer of Talent Tree specialization, why not allow players to change from (for example) Marauder Carnage DPS to Juggernaut Vengeance DPS and how is that a completely negative outcome?

By the way, in my research, I've discovered areas in which DPS rotations between ACs are similar and, in some cases, IDENTICAL (as shown below):

Let's compare AOE DPS rotations (from Sithwarrior.com) Between a MARAUDER ANNIHILATION spec and a JUGGERNAUT VENGEANCE spec:

MARAUDER ANNIHILATION:
  1. Sundering Assault
  2. Assault
  3. Smash
  4. Sweeping Slash

JUGGERNAUT VENGEANCE:
  1. Sundering Assault
  2. Assault
  3. Smash
  4. Sweeping Slash

I've was going to highlight the abilities shared between the two DIFFERENT ACs and then realized the rotation was the same.

For all of those claiming I'm asking for a Rogue to become a Mage, please show me a rotation between those different CORE CLASSES and note ONE ABILITY that is shared between them.

Quote:
No they do not share the same Core skills. They share some skills, but the core skills on my Guardian are not the same as the core skills on a Sentinel.
It's probably an issue of semantics. Let me clarify, open you skill panel and you will have a window that looks like this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Ta1UGnzXz...+abilities.png

At the bottom you have three tabs, General, CORE Class, AC. Last I checked (and I'll be honest, I haven't reached 50 on both my Warriors), both my Juggernaut AND Marauder train the EXACT SAME skills in the CORE Class tab.

Quote:
But based on that logic, you should be able to conver a Warlock into a Mage in WoW because they use the same basic mechanics, same mana system, same armor, ect...
The logic I'm using is that a Sith Warrior Juggernaut and a Sith Warrior Marauder train the EXACT SAME Core Skills (Force Leap, Sweeping Strikes, Smash, etc).

Not only do they train them, they use them in their rotation. Not similar abilities, not the same idea, the EXACT same ability. I'm only comparing abilities when they are EXACTLY the same. I am NOT saying all melee classes are the same or all ranged DPS classes are they same. They are not when they do NOT share the exact same abilities.

Warlocks and Mages do NOT train the EXACT SAME core skills, so I am not promoting the ability to change CORE Classes, but specs within a CORE class.

Quote:
A healer mercenary, and a DPS mercenary pretty much work the same way, they just have a few different abilities, and talents to make those abilities work (heat reduction, more efficiency, etc). So a healer merc and a DPS merc still feels like the same class.
But let's be certain, we're not saying it's okay as long as classes "feel like the same class". As I noted above, Annihilation Marauders and Vengeance Juggernauts not only "feel like the same" rotation in AOE situations, they are the EXACT same rotation. And yet, they are in different classes?

My argument is no...they are in different "specializations" within a Core Class or, as I've noted earlier, simply another tier of Talent Tree selections, but NOT an entirely separate class like Mages to Rogues or Priests to Warriors. These examples fail to meet the "same class definition" since they do not share a SINGLE shared ability nor a SINGLE shared talent tree.

Raximillian's Avatar


Raximillian
02.16.2012 , 02:34 PM | #159
I have not played a sith warrrior. I have played with snipers and operatives, and assassins/sorcs. And they are vastly different. If that only shows with sith warrior, or jedi knights, then BW did a bad job with those advanced classes... Still I do not think AC switching is the solution for that...

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
02.16.2012 , 02:49 PM | #160
Quote: Originally Posted by tazdirector View Post

While I've tried to avoid the WoW-comparisons, I'll answer a spade with a spade. In truth, I can see where the comparisons are being drawn regarding a rogue to a mage (i.e. an Assassin and Sorcerer). Instead (again, staying with the WoW-analogy here), I'm asking to allow players (specifically at end-game), the opportunity to change from a Retribution Paladin to a Protection Paladin or even (closer to the mage/rogue change) from an Enhancement Shaman to a Elemental Shaman.

This is already in game. I am free to respec between Defense and Vigilance as many times as I want on my JK.
Unsubscribed due to no new Operations.
I am happy that there will be a renewed focus on story, I love story, its why I picked this MMO. But I picked an MMO, not an episodic single player RPG that I have to pay a subscription to receive the episodes.