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Pvp Tanks - Pros and Cons

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Pvp Tanks - Pros and Cons

Auhfel's Avatar


Auhfel
02.14.2012 , 10:15 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Xallionn View Post
I'm a little confused about this comment. Guardians have 3 leaps (assuming you use a spec like Auhful suggested). Force Leap, Zealous Leap, and Guardian Leap. Force Leap even refreshes on 'choking' an enemy. That to me is incredible mobility. Am I missing something here? Do these share a cooldown or something? Also Malissant, why do you choose a "pure" tank spec over a hybrid build?

I'm actually liking what I see on a Vanguard and Guardian, but I think I'm going to go with the greater utility and better cooldowns of a guardian. Though I will say there is nothing more pleasing as a healer than seeing a sith leap you and having a vanguard or shadow harpoon him away. Ooh well.

Auhful, I'm planning on using a spec very similar to yours but I had a few questions on it. You have no points in Enraged Sunder. Is Sundering Assault rarely used at higher levels? Or is the extra generation just not needed?
It looks like a number of the higher up Rage Talents build up your Smash for a massive hit. Would it make sense to take 2 points out of Lash Out and 1 point out of Blade Barricade and put them into Heavy Handed to get +15% damage on Smash? Is Retaliation proc'd often enough to warrant a cost reduction on it? From a theory perspective, I'd imagine I'd be focusing on healers and other ranged, or protecting my guard target most of the time. Those targets either aren't going to be attacking me or aren't going to attack with something I can parry.
Juggernauts (Sith version of guardian) have 3 leaps with this spec, with one having the ability to reset on use of "Force Push". Force charge is a 10m-30m castable ability that snares and jumps to a target, with like 20 second cd or so. This ability's cooldown can be reset by using Force Push, a 10m range 2 second knockback/down. They also have Obliterate (Talented), which is a 10m range jump that costs rage and does not snare the target, but it can also trigger procs for smash crits and free force screams. Finally, they get "Intercede" which is a 30m range jump to an ally that also gives the ally some mitigation. So, Guardians/Juggernauts have 3 jumps, with one of those being able to be reset with force push for an effective 4 jumps.

For Sundering Assault, I just don't find the need for the extra rage. Saber throw generates 3 rage, then force charge generates 3 more, and then force choke generates another 3, pretty much filling your rage bar instantly. Juggernaughts also have a 1min cooldown instant 5-rage generator, all of these combined mean that you don't really need the extra rage. You could always force push your target, saber throw, and jump to him again if you need more rage.

Retaliation can be used ever 6 seconds if procc'd -- it costs 3 rage untalented, 1 rage talented. It procs often enough if you have focus, which will probably happen once the enemies realize you are guarding/taunting for the healer or whomever. Without the points in Lash Out, you would require more rage generation. Your main rage spenders seem to be Vicious Slash, Smash, Obliterate, and retaliation (Force scream will usually be proc'd to be free). the rage reduction imo is more worthwhile. You could easily take out the blade barricade, though. realize though that you can only force grip every 50 seconds, so there will be some lulls in your combo. 31pt ragers get their additional ability that procs the increased damage on smash, so it's no issue there. You could go a 10/0/31 build for more damage, while still being able to guard and taunt, but your CC and survivability would be reduced greatly (No 4 second stun from backhand, you ahve to channel your choke (can now be interrupted)). It does give you a nifty speed boost to obliterate, though.

Xallionn's Avatar


Xallionn
02.14.2012 , 11:56 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Thuull View Post
Darkness on the other hand has a more "standard" resource utility...with an "always on" resource buff in the tank tree...30% increased regen on your resource. It's nice. Also, your instant AE "get off my node ability", your knockback, is very rarely unavailable when you need it, because its not something you spam whenever its off cooldown during hot and heavy fights when you really need to get three guys who are trying to cap your node off that node RIGHT NOW. You've been busy doing other things that don't require your knockback, it's it's available...(at least it is for me).

Your self heals as darkness are just another form of mitigation, but they *do* help your dedicated pocket healer keep you up longer. If I'm running with a healer (him guarded obviously), we completely wreck face.

With my playstyle, I do more damage with my Shadow (darkness equiv) than I did with my Powertech...pretty sure it's because the resource is easier to manage for me. Other's might get different mileage there.
A lot can be said for an AoE knockback. I use it often on my sorc healer. The main problem with this spec though, for me is that it doesn't have a charge. I'm used to having a sprint which is amazing, but I kinda want to play with charge. The "quad" charges of a Guardian means it's very difficult to kite the tank.

Quote: Originally Posted by Thuull View Post
A big question here in your choice...which healer is your partner going to be running? If it's an operative, then I think your answer is already made...

Imagine a heal/tank both stealth combo running around in Civil War, defending doors in Voidstar and even better on the attack side in Voidstar. That would be awesomesauce.

EDIT: as a scenario...the other day an op healer and I were on guard duty at left node in civil war...we both stayed stealth the whole time. It was a veritable *magnet* for the bad guys (who owned mid). They'd go up the ramp, see my node undefended, and just come charging to cap it. At which point we'd pick which target we'd focus, come and and knock 'em down like bowling pins. Was a lot of fun.
You make a very excellent point here. He is in fact playing a scoundrel (operative). That ... that just sounds almost too awesome. If only Shadow had charge... Gah. I may have to level them both up just to have some fun with this. I'm certainly intrigued.

Quote: Originally Posted by Auhfel View Post
For Sundering Assault, I just don't find the need for the extra rage. Saber throw generates 3 rage, then force charge generates 3 more, and then force choke generates another 3, pretty much filling your rage bar instantly. Juggernaughts also have a 1min cooldown instant 5-rage generator, all of these combined mean that you don't really need the extra rage. You could always force push your target, saber throw, and jump to him again if you need more rage.

Retaliation can be used ever 6 seconds if procc'd -- it costs 3 rage untalented, 1 rage talented. It procs often enough if you have focus, which will probably happen once the enemies realize you are guarding/taunting for the healer or whomever. Without the points in Lash Out, you would require more rage generation. Your main rage spenders seem to be Vicious Slash, Smash, Obliterate, and retaliation (Force scream will usually be proc'd to be free). the rage reduction imo is more worthwhile. You could easily take out the blade barricade, though. realize though that you can only force grip every 50 seconds, so there will be some lulls in your combo. 31pt ragers get their additional ability that procs the increased damage on smash, so it's no issue there. You could go a 10/0/31 build for more damage, while still being able to guard and taunt, but your CC and survivability would be reduced greatly (No 4 second stun from backhand, you ahve to channel your choke (can now be interrupted)). It does give you a nifty speed boost to obliterate, though.
This makes sense. With as much as I respec, I'm sure I'll play around with it. Based on what you said, I think I'll mirror your build but with a single point in Heavy Handed (out of Blade Barricade). I'll start removing points out of Lash Out one at a time if I'm having excess rage. Blade Barricade just seems weak to me in a PvP setting. Obviously it's essential in PvE.

I can't see me doing a 31 build rager. What draws me to this class is the utility and many CCs. The rage build loses some of this. Plus, I want a very sturdy tank. I'm okay with sacrificing some dps to achieve this.

Corran's Avatar


Corran
02.14.2012 , 11:56 AM | #23
"No one makes a victim of folks I'm sworn to protect." - Corran Horn
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Loxion's Avatar


Loxion
02.14.2012 , 12:12 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Corran View Post
Looking at the actual numbers for the big hits and comparing that to the amount the enemy health bar drops, I would say a fairly significant part of that damage is due to the Vanguards BM gear and the enemies zero or very little gear.

Not saying he is a bad player, but gear and some skill gives a massive advantage over undergeared people.
Anything above is purely the opinion of the poster, unless otherwise stated

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Ravenolf's Avatar


Ravenolf
02.14.2012 , 12:19 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Xallionn View Post
Some good stuff here, but I'm not really looking for the pros and cons of a tank in pvp. I'm trying to compare the different tank specs. I actually run with a pet tank vanguard all the time and we are basically unstoppable when he's guarding me. I went from level 10 to BM in pvp with him, so I know tanks are good. However, I don't know all of the ends and outs of each tank and how they compare to each other.

EDIT: I suppose I should also mention that my tank friend is rolling a healer, so I will have a pet healer that I'll be protecting/guarding.
Well he should be able to give you all the info on the vanguard. The ability to charge and pull, is awesome.

Ossos's Avatar


Ossos
02.14.2012 , 12:27 PM | #26
Go guardian or Jugg. BH/vanguards are terrible at mitigating damage, sure the armor is great but most of the people you will be fighting don't simply do Kinetic/Energy damage.

Here's some more anti-Vanguard issues taken from the Vanguard forum:

2) Defenses ineffective in PVP

2A) Shields cannot trigger on Force or Tech attacks. Some player builds, notably Operatives and Sorcerers, can run their whole rotation without ever using a shieldable ability. This relegates any equipment or talents related to Shield Chance to PVE only which is contrary to stated game design philosophy that all abilities should give benefit in both PVE and PVP. Since most of the problem Tech/Force abilities do Elemental or Internal damage types they are also unmitigatable by armor; this contributes strongly to the perception that Ops/Sorcs are overpowered in PVP since neither shields nor armor are effective against them.

2B) Defense and Smoke Grenade are also ineffective against Force/Tech, further exacerbating the mitigation problem described above, as well as being worthless against high-accuracy opponents.

2C) When opponent's chance to crit plus my chance to shield add up to >100%, my shield chance is pushed down. This is imbalanced: if a player who has built and geared for offense opposes a player who has built and geared equally strongly into defense, those investments should counterbalance each other rather than one simnply overriding the other.

Proposed: Shields should work against all attack types in PVP, -or- classes with a large number of unshieldable abilities should have most of those abilities made shieldable. Smoke Grenade should be effective against all attacks and should be reworked from an accuracy debuff to a damage debuff if necessary. The 2-roll combat system should be modified so that if crit chance and shield chance overlap, the result of a roll in the overlap space is a normal hit or a shielded crit hit rather than a full crit.

4) Issues with specific talents

4A) Ion Cell is doing about 25% of its tooltip damage as observed in the field. The actual damage done is laughable and this destroys the value of Supercharged Ion Cell as well as Blaster Augs for ion-specced builds.

4B) Rebraced Armor is mathematically inferior to other mitigation talents, returning less than 1% overall mitigation per talent point even against armor-mitigatable attacks except at extremely high base armor values.

4C) The root from Defensive Measures begins when the ability is activated, not when the target lands in front of you. This reduces the 3-second impact of this talent by the duration of the harpoon animation, making it much less desirable than it appears.

4D) There's widespread feeling that that Harpoon and Storm should be reversed: Storm shold be moved to the baseline as it is useful for all Vanguard specs (Just as Force Leap is for knights), while Harpoon is specifically of interest to tank specs. Note that the community is split on this point with a significant number of players preferring the current implementation.

4E) "Charge", the 4-second speed boost after activating Storm, is almost universally scorned except by Huttball fanatics. Duration should be extended, CC immunity should be added, or this ability should be entirely replaced.

4F) Energy Blast is sadly underwhelming as the 31-point ability in the shield tree. Aside from the animation issues, it's an ok ability in that it's useful to do free damage and help manage your ammo, but it is badly in need of more cowbell. There's a strong community consensus that a taunt effect should be added to this or that it should be replaced with a strong defensive cooldown.

4G) Battlefield Training stacks with neither Sprint nor Hold The Line. Consider allowing it to stack, perhaps at a reduced value, or at least clarifying the tooltip to make this information more obvious.

4H) Kolto Recharge is probably the worst waste of a skill point in any class's trees. A 7% heal, over time, once per 2 minutes. This needs to be completely rethought.

4I) Soldier's Endurance: 1% Endurance per skill point returns a trivial number of hit points. This needs to have a larger effect or a completely different type of bonus.

4J) Ionized Ignition/ Superheated Plasma/ Sweltering Heat: these abilities are fine separately but it is impossible to spec to Tier 3 of Assault without investing at least 3 points into abilities which do nothing but boost Plasma Cell effects (and another 3 points in Soldier's Endurance, see 4I above). No other DPS tree compels a complete waste of points when creating a hybrid spec.

4K) Burnout costs 3 talent points to get the same effect as 1 point in Blaster Augs, plus a very situational low-value bonus to DOT-only damage against low-health opponents. Doesn't offer value for its investment.

4L) Blitz is dropped from many players' bars altogether. Consider allowing this ability to have lesser effect on players and elite+ mobs; or, consider making this ability an instakill on strong or normal mobs; or both.

4M) Neural Surge becomes buggy and does not reliably take effect when the duration bonus from the PVP Combat Tech set is applied.

4N) Damage avoided by Static Field or Smoke Bomb does not count towards protection totals/medals in PVP.


As a Guardian/Jugg you don't have these issues. BHs suffer from equivalent Vanguard issues but not totally. They don't have the damage delays that Ion Cannon and Motar Volley have, making BHs able to dish out more damage faster.

Finally, Guardians/Juggs have the highest burst damage in the game.
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Thuull's Avatar


Thuull
02.14.2012 , 01:30 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Xallionn View Post
A lot can be said for an AoE knockback. I use it often on my sorc healer. The main problem with this spec though, for me is that it doesn't have a charge. I'm used to having a sprint which is amazing, but I kinda want to play with charge. The "quad" charges of a Guardian means it's very difficult to kite the tank.



You make a very excellent point here. He is in fact playing a scoundrel (operative). That ... that just sounds almost too awesome. If only Shadow had charge... Gah. I may have to level them both up just to have some fun with this. I'm certainly intrigued.



This makes sense. With as much as I respec, I'm sure I'll play around with it. Based on what you said, I think I'll mirror your build but with a single point in Heavy Handed (out of Blade Barricade). I'll start removing points out of Lash Out one at a time if I'm having excess rage. Blade Barricade just seems weak to me in a PvP setting. Obviously it's essential in PvE.

I can't see me doing a 31 build rager. What draws me to this class is the utility and many CCs. The rage build loses some of this. Plus, I want a very sturdy tank. I'm okay with sacrificing some dps to achieve this.
I hear you.

If it helps any, I had the exact same reservation when I rolled my Shadow...and I do not miss having it.

Darkness/Kinetic have no problems getting around on the battlefield. You've got the 20 sec. speed boost that drops all movement debuffs when you use it (talented), a vanish, and a pull...and then the biggest really is your 40 pts. defense talent...AE snare that lasts for 15 sec on a 7.5sec cooldown. You will find that you do not have issues with people getting away from you.

Besides, when you have a vested interest in staying within 15m of your healer, do you really want to be tempted to "charge" up to that top deck on Huttball and separate yourself from him?

I honestly don't miss not having it. In fact, when I play my Powertech now, my mobility actually feels gimped. Snares are so prevalent in the WZs, he's perma-snared. Not that it matters a whole lot because of his ranged dps...but still, it's very hard for him now, even with charge, to actually GET somewhere that I need him to be. I never have that issue on my shadow.

Iridor's Avatar


Iridor
02.14.2012 , 02:18 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Ossos View Post
Go guardian or Jugg. BH/vanguards are terrible at mitigating damage, sure the armor is great but most of the people you will be fighting don't simply do Kinetic/Energy damage.

... random and somewhat outdated Vanguard complaints, many of which are applicable to every tank in the game...

As a Guardian/Jugg you don't have these issues. ...
Finally, Guardians/Juggs have the highest burst damage in the game.
This is almost completely wrong. Guardian/jugg and BH/trooper tanks have exactly the same issues when it comes to lack of mitigation. And Guardians have the highest burst in the game? LOL

EDIT: Op, if you're going Rage, you need to go 31 Rage. The spec revolves around building stacks to unleash big crit smashes, and without your 31 pt skill you can only do that about once a minute... and you have to spend your Force Choke cc to do it. The 31 pt skill lets you break out your smash fairly close to on cooldown, plus does decent damage, plus provides a nice slow.