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The Pro-Toggle Thread for same gender content.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Suggestion Box
The Pro-Toggle Thread for same gender content.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
02.11.2012 , 08:23 PM | #1
Firstly, everyone is invited to post on this thread, but this thread is designed to be a place for pro-toggle players to safely voice their support for an option to disable same gender content in their own games without being bullied by the P.C. police. Anti-toggle players, please keep your objections restricted to an argument that relates solely to your SWTOR gaming experience. For instance, if you object to the toggle, you need to explain how your objection can be valid from a game-only perspective. This is a thread suggesting the need for a toggle and describing the fair ways it can be implemented.

Quoting the mods: "As a special request to everyone, as this is a sensitive topic, please review the Rules of Conduct before posting in the other threads. Please remember that when voicing your opinions, never be rude or insulting to other community members, derogatory towards any groups, keep religion and politics out of posts and please be respectful of one another!"

Suggestion as follows:

Solution:

1. Toggle is the best idea out of the forum yet but needs to be taken a step further to avoid the very ethical problems some players have mentioned.

2. This is a question about game content desired by some of the players - we don't need to get to the hairier question of what the default position of the toggle should be.

3. Rather than a clickable toggle that actively switches off or on game content, more sensible is to circumvent ALL ethical "default" questions by initiating the content in a different way.

4a. Optimally, for the happiness of everyone, imagine the following: you are a) a new player installing the game for the first time or b) a current player updating this patch;

4b. Upon installation you are discreetly prompted "Would you like to view options for same gender [Flirt] content?" (Yes or No);

4c. If you clicked "no", that's it; patch finished, resume your game.

4d. If you clicked "yes", you are brought to the menu for same sex content options, choosing whom and which you prefer, the new content is installed and not only will you be able to enjoy same sex flirts but you will not have to be bothered by hetero flirt options either ---- so that is better than just putting both choices up, even for those on whose behalf the content is being installed.

4e. Problem solved - everybody gets the content they want - ALL ethical issues avoided - immersion NOT affected, in fact perhaps even enhanced.

4f. The only default toggle would be "Flirts: On/Off".

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As you can see this is a solution where everybody gets what they want - the only thing missing is the out-of-game desire to thrust unwanted content upon other paying players who have every bit as much right to enjoy their game as those who are against the toggle. People who are in favor of a toggle are not trying to infringe on what people who want this content can enjoy in their games, however people who are against the toggle have yet to make an argument relating strictly to the game that describes how what other people choose not to see affects the anti-toggle players game.

Addressing technical complications: Bisexual is included under "Same Sex Options" prompt. Clicking "No" to "Would you like to view options for same sex content?" bypasses everything, however clicking "Yes" opens a whole sub menu; at this menu are the options to identify your own profile gay/lesbian/bi/straight, OR an option to specifically click which character types you choose to flirt with, OR an option to have all the choices posted up as you go so you can change your mind every step of the way.

In short, we call for a pre-toggle option, a prompt that immediately appears from the launcher when you install the patch that says, "Would you like to view same sex content options?" - click no, and those conversation files/extra companions are not installed, click yes and they are. They have to record all this content either way, the video, the audio, write the dialogue. They're creating it for a select crowd, it should be available to the crowd that selects it. The files are just for the people that want them; story wise if the fate of the galaxy depends on who bangs who they have bigger problems to worry about than all types of flirts.

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As a precondition of voicing objection to the toggle, you need to (as I have) keep in mind the forum rules and BW policy guidelines requiring all discussion begin and end in such a way that relates strictly to the game, and that gaming experience.

For pro-toggle players, I repeat: Players need to speak up now and let Bioware know that a fair, simple toggle is all we ask for to prevent the game from being rendered, to many of us, unplayable via gamebreak.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
02.11.2012 , 08:23 PM | #2
Foundational Questions:

Q1. Can they give LGBT players all the options they want in their game without affecting other people who don't want it? Yes - easily.

Q2a. If anti-toggle people can have all the content they want, on what basis can they further object to other people being able to turn that content off - is this basis restricted solely to the question of gaming? No.

Q2b. Can this objection be on a basis that relates only to the game; has nothing to do with anything except the game, if the content they want is being delivered unabridged only to the people who want it? No.

Q2c. Does Bioware's policy state that all objections to this discussion be related solely to the context of your experience in the game? Yes.

Q3. IF LGBT characters have the content that they want, can utilize it fully to their heart's content, how does the fact that other players do not have to see it (via toggle) obstruct their game immersion experience?

A: It does not. Nobody's trying to restrict LGBT choices but anti-toggle players are trying to restrict the choices of others. If they have the content they want and just have a problem with the toggle, that toggle relates solely to the experience of other players, i.e., anti-toggle players are not content to enjoy the content on their own: their problem is with what other people want to do in their own games, which is no one else's business.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
02.11.2012 , 08:24 PM | #3
Further note: pro-toggle players in general are less likely to participate in the forums and less likely to want to argue, even though their gaming experience will be affected in a way they disagree with. Please be civil to those who post and practice the same standard of decency that all of us should expect. To the pro-toggle players: if you don't quite know what to say or how to say it, don't worry! Just keep it simple and let people know you would prefer the toggle and leave it at that.

Racheakt's Avatar


Racheakt
02.11.2012 , 08:43 PM | #4
I am all for a toggle, but be warned, you are going to need a fame suit.

Many of anti-toggle folks think that any form of toggle is an affront to the LGBT community as a statement that they are a subject that is worthy of filtering.

Demaio-J's Avatar


Demaio-J
02.11.2012 , 09:19 PM | #5
If you can toggle same sex flirting off I should be able to turn off flirting with the opposite sex. Everyone is gay or no one is.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
02.11.2012 , 09:23 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Demaio-J View Post
If you can toggle same sex flirting off I should be able to turn off flirting with the opposite sex.
I agree 100%.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
02.11.2012 , 09:26 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Racheakt View Post
I am all for a toggle, but be warned, you are going to need a fame suit.

Many of anti-toggle folks think that any form of toggle is an affront to the LGBT community as a statement that they are a subject that is worthy of filtering.
Thanks! For most pro-toggle players the issue is they don't want their game to be a statement at all. I want the toggle because like you said in another post, there is a lot of r/l political argument about the subject, an argument that without a toggle is a gamebreaker for people who don't want to deal with politics in the middle of a video game. Its not saying this side is right or that side is wrong, its saying I just want to play video games and leave this bickering to r/l.

Demaio-J's Avatar


Demaio-J
02.11.2012 , 09:37 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Comfterbilly View Post
Thanks! For most pro-toggle players the issue is they don't want their game to be a statement at all. I want the toggle because like you said in another post, there is a lot of r/l political argument about the subject, an argument that without a toggle is a gamebreaker for people who don't want to deal with politics in the middle of a video game. Its not saying this side is right or that side is wrong, its saying I just want to play video games and leave this bickering to r/l.
See, you're completely missing the point and this insane restriction that this can only be discussed from a technical or game experience standpoint despite the fact that this is a purely social problem. The fact is, if you want to remove the politics from this than ALL romance options have to be turned off.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
02.11.2012 , 09:42 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Demaio-J View Post
See, you're completely missing the point and this insane restriction that this can only be discussed from a technical or game experience standpoint despite the fact that this is a purely social problem. The fact is, if you want to remove the politics from this than ALL romance options have to be turned off.
No they don't have to be turned off - that is the point of a toggle. People can have anything they want, and they don't have to have what they don't want. There is no game-only reason to prevent players from having the option via toggle, which is the most painless way to go. I play SWTOR to get away from social politics, not to pay for them.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
02.11.2012 , 10:17 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Demaio-J View Post
Okay I've taken a few minutes to calm down and I think the problem is that you don't understand what you're suggesting. Having an option that turns off all hints and references to homosexuality is discrimination. I don't think that's where you were going when you made this thread but you need to appreciate that what you are suggesting is incredibly offensive.
Thank you for collecting your thoughts. No, having a toggle to turn off the flirts you don't want from computer generated characters is not discrimination, its immersion. Racheakt rightly pointed out there is plenty of r/l debate surrounding sexuality issues, I also observe that for many people this is a gamebreaker. I'm not contributing my money to endorse anything other than Star Wars, the game, (TM). Thrusting these options on players without the refuge of a toggle is a blanket endorsement that will leave me no option to continue playing. The intolerant crowd is the anti-toggle side, who cannot abide the r/l personal preferences of other players that have no impact on anti-toggle players experience in the game.

You're not objecting to what you get through this content, you're objecting to what other people do or don't have to see in their experience in their own games.

I'm not suggesting that content is inappropriate - in fact I'm not making any kind of statement. This is a statement-free post in a statement-free zone. Pro-toggle players need to be heard so the game provider will understand that we are asking for the option of keeping politics out of the game via toggle, so we can keep playing - playing the game (TM), that is.

What you need to understand is that your objection is r/l political, based on your r/l opinions, and that your complaint about what other people don't have to see is personal. Save the fighting for PVP, don't ask the company to hit us over the head with your opinions and still hope we continue subscribing.