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One Tank Ops Need To Go

BigKingNasty's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 10:56 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by NemeirNyyx View Post
How about do the math. If Tanks start the game knowing that 3/4 of them are going to be sitting on the bench once they reach op level, there's less incentive to level as one. Then you get a horrible imbalance of DPS/Heals to tanks, and have a hell of a time doing FPs.
I find the math of that extremely difficult to believe. If only 1 tank is needed for ops, then the other tanks, instead of sitting on the bench, should be running heroics and other things to train themselves to be better than the tank doing the Operation. Seriously, Ive been through that, and all i did when i logged on to play was practice tanking. And now i have the top spot in my guild for tanking. If the tank doesn't have the chops to tank something, then they should work on getting better. Practice makes perfect.

Also if you are complaining enough about this being the case in game then everyone probably has you on ignore, which is another reason why you cant find a tank.

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anwg's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 10:58 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Skodar View Post
The bigger problem is the lack of appeal that HM FPs have for people who run ops. It's pointless for those of us in full Rakata to run HM FPs because the "reward" are commendations for pieces that would be downgrades, even for our offsets. If they would change columi/tionese commendations to "Heroic Commendations" or the like, and drop the crystal thing(which is pointless imo) and allow some columi and all tionese to be bought with said commendations while the rest drops from NM Ops, then you would have more people wanting to run FPs.
Well, the difficulty progression is borked. It should be quest->FP->HM FP-> OP ->HM OP and so on. But normal operations are so easy you can can fresh 50s and be 4/5 EV straight away.

Berjiz's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 11:01 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
We've only done EV so far, Kragga tonight for the first time, but EV seems fine with two tanks.

1st boss: tank on each turret. Not required but nice to have.
#2: lava guys adds. Again not required but handy.
#3: pylon puzzle. Not sure how you do this with one tank.
#4: solo bosses. There are two assassin that are much easier as a tank. Again not required. Any well geared class can take them out.
#5 Soa: two tanks means a bad luck mind trap doesn't equal a wipe.

So while two tanks isn't required its certainly "designed" for two.
The problem is that its much easier with another dps instead of a tank. With the guild Im running ops with we are either wiping due to bugs or hitting the enrage. The droid puzzle boss in Kragga might need 2 tanks though, havent beaten him yet.

KiranK's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 12:12 PM | #24
LF Tank is becoming more and move common and lasting longer and longer. At first I thought that was awesome. I'm a tank, more opportunities for me. WRONG. The only people LF Tank are people doing flash points. All the raids have their 1 tank already, meaning I can NEVER hope to pug a Op, ever. That's BS. So you're telling me if I don't form my own personal operations team I can never do ops without respeccing? You're forcing me into a role I didn't design this character for. In fact, since you've also intentionally made all operations better for ranged than you did for melee, respeccing DPS doesn't even get me anywhere. All ops want ranged DPS, so I'd have to reroll an entirely new class just to get an ops slot as DPS. GJ, Bioware. -100 more cool points.
There's no QQing in baseball.

Raencloud's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 12:36 PM | #25
You can do both operations with 2 tanks just fine, but you should always keep dps gear as a tank. This is nothing new to MMOs, and if you want to be "tank only, never dps" then you better find yourself a guild to be the MT of (that's going to be pretty hard to do without making your own guild btw). If you want to PUG your operations, then you better be versatile. It's not different than anything else in life, the more you can offer the greater your chances of getting into the raid and once in the raid, the higher your raids success will be if you can fill any gaps.

I've done both EV and KP pugs on normal mode. If you have 4 good dps (they don't have to be amazing), then you can breeze through both instances with 2 tanks. Early on, when lots of people were undergeared, the low DPS really hurt us on Soa when we had the 2nd tank doing almost no damage, so I typically ran a hybrid tank/dps spec and just swapped gear when appropriate. This week, we had 2 dedicated tanks (myself being one of them) in full tank specs and gear and still breezed through all of KP.

PUGing is always, and will always, be at the whim of those who make the groups. If you can't get into a group, then you have to make your own. It's not the game or the other players fault that they don't have a spot for you, and even if every fight and trash pull required 2 tanks, there's no guarantee they would then either. Bringing a bad tank is disastrous for a raid, and as such those that organize PUGs often find tanks they know beforehand to avoid such issues. Whether that's 1 or 2 doesn't really matter.

Akku's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 01:19 PM | #26
The design problem isn't as bad it sounds from a guild perspective. Especially if you get into HM/NM raiding. In wow you were almost held hostage to find an OT that was remotely serviceable. That's not even counting the fact that a lot of OTs took it up not because they like tanking, but wanted an important position where they wouldn't be left behind.

This set up actually fixes what some people brought up, even in wow there were tons of fights where the OT did nothing but stood there, soaked damage, and DPSed. This game makes the most sense of it 4 mans as at least a half dozen posters have said, can be tanked by a dps in tank stance with tank gear and the dual tank fights don't generally require a second tank. Just taunt, pop tank stance, possibly a survival CD.

Other thing people forget is larger guilds have multiple alts being leveled. Chances are one of them can tank, doubtfull those people will object to "hey tank this for us our half columi healer and dps want to bang our daily out of the way." Last thing is, yes for guild MT this requires us to be involved and possibly *gasp* tanking instances that you get nothing out of other than raid ready guildies.
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Kaonis's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 04:18 PM | #27
Tanks in ops need a big tweak yes. Presently me and my guild run with 2 tanks just because we have so many damn tanks we need at least 2 so those guys aren't entirely left out, but honestly half the time we don't need the second tank. What does the off tank do? Crap for DPS, and just slow down the ops group. There's a few boss fights where they come in handy, but not many, and even trying to use them to just pick up adds seems good in theory, but we've rarely run into trouble with just 1 tank tanking everything, and DPS burning down what didn't get taunted.

I think the big issue here is with enrage mechanics bringing a second tank is more of a hindrance than a buff as they don't do much, and take a spot for a DPS who could help burn through a boss faster to prevent an enrage wipe, namely if your trying to gear up some new people.

It would be nice if off tanks had some sort of way to help out the party, whether it be via buffing, debuffing the enemies, or something to make them feel worthwhile. But right now they just feel like a waste of space that could be better left for someone else.

TheHauntingBard's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 04:55 PM | #28
It doesn't sound encouraging to be a tank in this game when about every encounter uses one tank only.

The term 'off tank' can be translated into ' design flaw' a good encounter should challenge both tanks equally.
Having a boss that hits the 'MT' and the 'off tank' hunting trash mobs is just a dull concept, especially when adds are designed in a boring way.

Further more this helps establishing the MT-OT situation .

It is simply more fun when a boss just challenges both tanks equally skill and gear wise.
Stephen Reid - 9:02a.m. - January 11th 2012 - because in reality, there was never supposed to be a 'Medium' choice - that was a bug.

AureliaKarrde's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 04:59 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by dragonfor View Post
Less tanks per Ops group means more groups over-all allowing more dps and heals into ops groups.

Seriously, read between the lines of your own post and you'll see that all you're saying is:
"I don't want to start my own Ops groups and the Ops groups that're starting already have their Tanks, so I'm going to go cry about it on the forums instead of actually doing something about it myself".
ignorance is bliss huh?
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Daex's Avatar

02.11.2012 , 05:50 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Skodar View Post
Some of the pseudo-offtanks(i.e. dps jug/pt/sin with tank gear) probably don't realize they could easily tank HM FPs in dps spec with tank gear, nothing in FPs is so crazy to REQUIRE tank specs.
Actually tried this and have to tell you, everything is doable with some effort but that bonus boss in Kaon just no :P