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Rule of two question


SunwindIon's Avatar


SunwindIon
02.10.2012 , 10:08 AM | #1
Does the apprentice usually get stronger and kill the master, or will a master go through a few apprentices assassination attempts before he gets one strong enough to beat him?

Rasputaan's Avatar


Rasputaan
02.10.2012 , 12:12 PM | #2
The Rule of Two is bogus. At the exact time when Yoda proclaimed it there were at least 3 running around (Maul, Dooku, Sidious). 4 if you count the Cyborg Grevious who also said he was taught by Dooku.

There is no Rule of Two
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SunwindIon's Avatar


SunwindIon
02.10.2012 , 12:19 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Rasputaan View Post
The Rule of Two is bogus. At the exact time when Yoda proclaimed it there were at least 3 running around (Maul, Dooku, Sidious). 4 if you count the Cyborg Grevious who also said he was taught by Dooku.

There is no Rule of Two
Maul came before Dooku did he not? and Grievous could be considered Dookus single apprentice? the 'master' in each case still only has 1 apprentice

Toonimator's Avatar


Toonimator
02.10.2012 , 12:23 PM | #4
Nope! Dooku was only recruited by Sidious AFTER Maul died; Qui-Gon's death, whether it really affected Dooku or not, was a convenient excuse to cut ties with the Jedi. So there was Sidious & Maul, then briefly just Sidious, then Sidious & Dooku.

Grievous was trained in saber combat by Dooku, but he was NOT Sith by any means, nor did he use the Force. And potential recruits like Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, Sora Bulq, and Tol Skorr were merely pawns, Dooku's 'acolytes', tools to be used by the Sith, taught by the Sith, but not given all a Sith's lore & teachings. Dooku may have chosen one as a proper Sith Apprentice if he ever felt ready to overthrow Sidious, or he may have discarded them all.

The bigger question about the Rule of Two--I've never remembered the exact explanation for it, or where it could be found--is how did YODA know about it in EpI? The Sith have been thought extinct for 1000 years. Yoda's only about 865 in EpI. If the Sith have been in hiding since Darth Bane established the rule...how did Yoda hear of it?

Tho I do remember someone mentioning recently that one of the Banite Sith who was an ex-Jedi somehow returned to the light and was driven insane and died...perhaps he's the one who spilled the beans to the Jedi that 'always two there are, no more, no less...except when one gets killed, of course.'

internaty's Avatar


internaty
02.10.2012 , 12:25 PM | #5
From my point of view(obi-one quete for the win)
The sith idea of master is different then that of jedi.

The master is the one in charge and you are his usefull servant until you can kill him.
Neither master nor apprentice trust eatchother and continuese try's to avoid giving the other a reson to kill him.

In the end sith dont follow the rule of two to strickly.

An appretice might raise his own appretice if it means he can overtrow his master but he doesnt trust is appretice either,
So it is an use or be used sociaty.

The only reson the rule of two is loosly followed is to avoid to many sith backstabbing at the same time.

So in short a master has only one offical appretice unofficaly he has as many as he can control.

EDIT: to put it plainly a master only keeps a appretice he can control and the apprentice seeks to avoid his masters suppisions until it is too late.

Other "appretice" are tools who are nowhere near as powerfull usefull or dangerous as the appretice.

At the point of betrayel the victory is the master and the loser dead.
And the cycle will begin again.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

AetosV's Avatar


AetosV
02.10.2012 , 12:25 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Rasputaan View Post
The Rule of Two is bogus. At the exact time when Yoda proclaimed it there were at least 3 running around (Maul, Dooku, Sidious). 4 if you count the Cyborg Grevious who also said he was taught by Dooku.

There is no Rule of Two
This is all kinds of messed up. Allow me to correct you, sire.

When Maul is delivered to Darth Sidious as an infant, Darth Sidious is still an apprentice to Darth Plagueis. Together, Sidious and Plagueis made it VERY CLEAR to one-another that Darth Maul WAS NOT to be a true apprentice, merely a weapon to reaffirm the reascendancy of the Sith.

Darth Maul was never meant to be a true Sith Lord.

The day Darth Sidious killed Darth Plagueis was the same day Obi-Wan Kenobi killed Darth Maul. At that time, Dooku was still a Jedi Master, but he was leaving the Order to reclaim his title of Count on his homeworld, Serenno. It was at that time, after the deaths of both Darth Plagueis and Darth Maul that Sidious made Dooku- renamed Darth Tyrannus- his apprentice.

General Grievous was NOT Force-sensitive, and is not a Sith Lord. Asajj Ventress was also not a Sith, just an assassin. The presence of both Grievous and Ventress does not violate the Rule of Two, as the only two true Sith Lords are Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrannus- up until Darth Sidious replaced Tyrannus in favor of Anakin Skywalker, who becomes Darth Vader.

Rasputaan's Avatar


Rasputaan
02.10.2012 , 12:27 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Toonimator View Post
Nope! Dooku was only recruited by Sidious AFTER Maul died; Qui-Gon's death, whether it really affected Dooku or not, was a convenient excuse to cut ties with the Jedi. So there was Sidious & Maul, then briefly just Sidious, then Sidious & Dooku.

Grievous was trained in saber combat by Dooku, but he was NOT Sith by any means, nor did he use the Force. And potential recruits like Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, Sora Bulq, and Tol Skorr were merely pawns, Dooku's 'acolytes', tools to be used by the Sith, taught by the Sith, but not given all a Sith's lore & teachings. Dooku may have chosen one as a proper Sith Apprentice if he ever felt ready to overthrow Sidious, or he may have discarded them all.

The bigger question about the Rule of Two--I've never remembered the exact explanation for it, or where it could be found--is how did YODA know about it in EpI? The Sith have been thought extinct for 1000 years. Yoda's only about 865 in EpI. If the Sith have been in hiding since Darth Bane established the rule...how did Yoda hear of it?

Tho I do remember someone mentioning recently that one of the Banite Sith who was an ex-Jedi somehow returned to the light and was driven insane and died...perhaps he's the one who spilled the beans to the Jedi that 'always two there are, no more, no less...except when one gets killed, of course.'
It is my understanding that Maul did not die from his wounds. He lived on.
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Rasputaan's Avatar


Rasputaan
02.10.2012 , 12:29 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by AetosV View Post
This is all kinds of messed up. Allow me to correct you, sire.

When Maul is delivered to Darth Sidious as an infant, Darth Sidious is still an apprentice to Darth Plagueis. Together, Sidious and Plagueis made it VERY CLEAR to one-another that Darth Maul WAS NOT to be a true apprentice, merely a weapon to reaffirm the reascendancy of the Sith.

Darth Maul was never meant to be a true Sith Lord.

The day Darth Sidious killed Darth Plagueis was the same day Obi-Wan Kenobi killed Darth Maul. At that time, Dooku was still a Jedi Master, but he was leaving the Order to reclaim his title of Count on his homeworld, Serenno. It was at that time, after the deaths of both Darth Plagueis and Darth Maul that Sidious made Dooku- renamed Darth Tyrannus- his apprentice.

General Grievous was NOT Force-sensitive, and is not a Sith Lord. Asajj Ventress was also not a Sith, just an assassin. The presence of both Grievous and Ventress does not violate the Rule of Two, as the only two true Sith Lords are Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrannus- up until Darth Sidious replaced Tyrannus in favor of Anakin Skywalker, who becomes Darth Vader.
Well that is just symantics, isn't it? I can have 2 students but as long as I don't call one my "official" student im still good? Pretty thin IMHO.
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Pesh's Avatar


Pesh
02.10.2012 , 12:32 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Rasputaan View Post
The Rule of Two is bogus. At the exact time when Yoda proclaimed it there were at least 3 running around (Maul, Dooku, Sidious). 4 if you count the Cyborg Grevious who also said he was taught by Dooku.

There is no Rule of Two
This answer has a major lack of knowledge about the EU canon.

The rule of 2 in fact went on for over a century, started by Darth Bane.

Darth Plagueis, master of Darth Sidious, was the first to break this. He believed that the Sith had become strong enough and wanted to build the Sith up again.

So he did not keep secrets from Sidious such as past masters did, but instead tried to show him everything. Darth Maul was the beginning of the end for the rule of two.

Darth Maul was trained by Sidious under the watchful eye of Plagueis. And this was the beginning of a new Sith rule.

Sidious, having been taught in the ways of the rule of two, followed them and eventually killed his master.

But Sidious himself then expanded on the idea of his master and built a small army of Sith under his rule. His only known apprentice was Darth Vader. But he trained many others who server him during this time... Servents of the likes of Mara Jade and Joruus C'baoth.

Sidious was also well aware of Vader training Starkiller, and did nothing to stop it until it become his problem.

The reason we never get a good sense of the rule of two is because when the movies begin, the rule of two was just broken.

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Now to answer the original poster. The apprentice would learn from his/her master until their master would show weakness.

Then they would strike. If they where indeed stronger, they would kill their master and take his/her place. If however they miss judged, then the master would kill or spare them with his/her superior powers. If the apprentice is killed the Darth would seek out a new apprentice to teach his/her lifes work to.

In the end there is only one Lord of the Sith at a time. And one Sith apprentice at a time, but one Lord could go through many apprentices until his/her death... or just 1.

SunwindIon's Avatar


SunwindIon
02.10.2012 , 01:15 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Rasputaan View Post
It is my understanding that Maul did not die from his wounds. He lived on.
what?!

also I was wondering who are the characters that surround Palpatine once he reveals his true nature? there's like 2-3 people that are always with him in the senate etc, are they sith too?