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Vanguarg should have a Ranged DPS tree

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Trooper
Vanguarg should have a Ranged DPS tree

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
02.07.2012 , 09:42 AM | #1
I know vanguard are mostly a melee dps. Even the assault tree rely on stockstrike (4m) proc, as well as ion pulse (10m).


Why?
I think the game is too heavy in melee dps, there are 5 melee dps class and 3 range class. Giving the vanguard (and the scoundrel) a viable, competitive range dps tree would go a long way to balance things out.


How

Tweaking a few spell/talent and of course balancing it so the ranged output match the melee output of melee tree.

Our range (30m) single target attack are
Explosive round (aoe)
Sticky grenade (aoe)
Full auto
High impact Bolt
Assault plastique (share CD with sticky grenade)
hammer shot
Mortar Volley (aoe)

i think that's plenty to work out a rotationthough either explosive round or sticky grenade needs to be a pure single target damage dealing, we can have a CC breaking ability in our standard rotation.

The biggest problem is the proc of HiB from stockstrike or ion pulse.

I see 2 solutions
- a small change to have it proc equaly to range attack (assault plastique or full auto)
- a talent that modify ion pulse, increase range to 30m but with a 2s cast time. only accessible from the assault tree, the cast time does not make it OP.

Bonus: To make it interesting, you could work out a proc or a charge build up on ion pulse to have the vanguard use a new ability : Throw the overcharge ion ammo clip that is about to blow up (for RP purpose, no damage on vanguard if he doesn't)



AOE situation
This is a tough one, our only ranged aoe option are

Mortar Volley
Sticky grenade
Explosive round

Mortar volley and Sticky grenade have too long of a cooldown and explosive round is weak in aoe situation.

The way i could see it is adding a new spell with tallent, a sort of a build up

Explosive roung make you gain a charge, when you have 3 charge, you unload with some channel aoe spell



Final Word


I know people would tell me go roll commando if i want a soldier range dps, and on some level i would agree with them.

But i strongly believe there is an imbalance Melee/Range class in game (see above) and vanguard/scoundrel are probably the best approach to solve it, somehow, i don't see how we could easily make a ranged dps out of a sentinel.

Another way to solve this imbalance would be to add a 5th class, where both AC are ranged but, that is a lot more work to create, make a story, planet, gear, animation, recorded voice over...

thanks for your feedback

PS: I meant to post it in vanguard forum, my bad, i will duplicate it there

karaflos's Avatar


karaflos
02.07.2012 , 11:51 AM | #2
i totally agree man! u should be on the design team! verry clever and i think very important changes that would increase gameplay euforia aaaa lot in this class and maybe in other classes too. U know gaining charges and do something spectacular after 3 or 4 ! AWSOME!

GJ

va_wanderer's Avatar


va_wanderer
02.07.2012 , 12:22 PM | #3
Edit: I'll post a response to the Vanguard copy of OP's post.

Warrenb's Avatar


Warrenb
02.07.2012 , 03:11 PM | #4
I wonder if buffing our ranged AoE's imbalances PvP a bit. If it is a "squishier" person doing the AoE damage they can be focused down and removed, but putting a tank in there doing ranged AoE dps seems broken.

Also, tanking usually requires you to be facing stuff away from the group, moving mobs around, etc and doing this at range is very difficult if not impossible. Sure you can have someone else do that type of stuff, but now you are separating what tanks can and can't do which makes encounters more difficult to design. I think it is better to just leave the tanking be melee and build around that. You can still design the encounter where the current vanguard setup is good enough, but not be put in the box to make all vanguard tanking be from range.

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
02.07.2012 , 03:43 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Warrenb View Post
I think it is better to just leave the tanking be melee and build around that.
agree, but i am sort of talking about dps tree, not tanking, no shield chance because in plasma cell, no def on stuff since pve dps.

but y'a cautious must be have with range in ion cell, maybe deactivate some ability.

Sunsoar's Avatar


Sunsoar
02.07.2012 , 03:47 PM | #6
I agree as well. Vanguards NEED a range dps tree.

Also since we spend most our time in melee range let us equip Vibroswords
Without me, it's just aweso.
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This game desperately needs some sandbox elements. Repetitive grinding is not fun.

SirHaggis's Avatar


SirHaggis
02.07.2012 , 04:27 PM | #7
I like the idea of being able to shoot people in the face. That said I'm willing to give the sentinel a ranged tree based around juggling lightsabers.

But really the list of 30 shots are two (well three counting hammershot) ranged attacks which do less damage then commando version simply do to weapon choice, one which sole purpose is leveling to 10, an AoE on a minute cooldown, and a AoE which shares a cooldown with your big hitter.

And giving Ion pulse a cast time? At that point your playstyle is identical to an assault commando, expect you be doing less damage then one due to your gun.
Haggis Mmm good.

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Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
02.07.2012 , 05:27 PM | #8
the whole point was to tweak the class.

of course as it stand, commando are the only trooper range. Of course vanguard has 2 melee tree, there is no denying that. Of course, as it stand a vanguard would do less dps than commando at range.

The whole point of my thread is "what if"
The point was to modify base damage and talent so the vanguard would have a range tree with same dps output as all other range dps
Do you feel it's needed, do you feel it will help the balance of the game?
I also believe a range dps cannot be all instant, far too OP in PVP. with full auto and ion pulse a channeled/cast ability, that help balance.


what are your though on

Melee dps
Guardian
Sentinel
Vanguard
Scoundrel
Shadow


Range DPS
commando
gunslinger
sage

in a 16 man operation, what is the ideal ratio melee/range dps?


anyway, may never happen, but i thought i would help the balancing of melee/range dps ratio

Culhaven's Avatar


Culhaven
02.08.2012 , 12:09 AM | #9
I thought Assault Specialist was the Ranged DPS tree.?

*Ah, never mind. I see it only adds 2 ranged attacks.

Hirokinae's Avatar


Hirokinae
02.08.2012 , 05:00 AM | #10
You have a very interesting point. The way I see it however, is that the classes MAYBE could use one which favored ranged more, but I dont see vanguards as a PURE melee dps either, in that we dont get completely dicked over like a sentinel or a guardian/shadow when forced out of melee. In addition, even scoundrels have a psuedo-ranged tree they can utilize which makes their damage mostly based on dots.


The way I see it, Bioware has tried to balance out the classes accordingly:

Melee:
Guardian
Sentinel
Shadow

Mid-range:
Vanguard
Scoundrel

Ranged:
Commando
Gunslinger
Sage


When you look at it that way, it seems fairly balanced. Even the Scoundrel when speced into dirty fighting leans more towards ranged, while the vanguard when specced into tactics leans more towards melee.

Of course, both the vanguard and scoundrel should be in melee to maximize damage, but at the same time, think about the fact that gunslinger/commando/sage all need to be completely stationary and hardcasting everything at range to maximize dps. They aren't as mobile as a vanguard or scoundrel when at ranged because ALL of our attacks are instant, while commandos/sages get messed up when they're forced to move during a cast, and gunslingers can't even use half their abilities when not behind cover.

I think a fairy good example is the last boss in karraga's palace. As a vanguard, I find i do m ore damage than any of the other classes because of my mobility. Our sentinel is constantly messed up because if he's not in melee, he's simply just not doing damage and generating force, and its very difficult to stay in melee because of all of the fire in the ground you must avoid, on top of the chance that the gravity well can sometimes suck you in and trap you there staring at the boss herpderping twidling your thumbs.

On the other hand, Our commandos get annoyed because the gravity well constantly sucks them in mid-gravround cast. If you get interrupted mid-cast, you've essentially just wasted an entire GCD and more because of the cast time. On top of that, when trying to run and dps, they either have to pray that their HIB is up, or hammershot to victory while moving because its really the only thing they can do on the move while trying to get away from gravity wells =P

So i dont have the weakness of the sentinel, because i can still run around with my dots up, HIBing/ionpulsing/hammershotting while gettin in and out of the fire while I only have to be in melee every 9 seconds for stockstrike, and can still usually be in range to ion pulse at least when i get yanked out by the gravity.

I also dont have the weakness of the commando because all of my abilities are instant, I can do more than just hammershot while moving out of the gravity well, and never have to stand still for a second. Even if i get yanked, all of my abilities were instant anyways so I never lose a GCD.


I think its a fairly balanced tradeoff, and vanguards/scoundrels are great "inbetweens" You dont get dicked over when you're out of melee like a sentinel/guardian/shadow, and you never have to stand completely still in order to absolutely maximize your dps like a gunslinger/sage/commando does.

I'm glad the OP posted the thread with his valid concerns, and those are my thoughts, what do you guys think? =)