Note: this is intended to be a PvE discussion. PvP'ers, please stay away.

We are requesting feedback from developers about the PvE damage of the Scoundrel/Operative.

There has been a LOT of rage from Operative/Scoundrels on the 1.1.1 nerf, mostly for Bioware completely ignoring the PvE consequenses.

Our PvE damage has been nerfed badly in favour of PVP and we would like a developer to comment on this fact.

However, pages and pages of threads about this subject have been closed down and ignored.

I do not play PVP.

I had to shelve my Scoundrel, due to not being able to keep up the DPS required in NM raids.

Now, I'm full timing my Commando instead. Now,

Judging by the threads posted below, these are the most important questions the Scoundrel/OPS community would like to see answered by a developer:

1. Why did you ignore the PvE consequenses of this PVP-focused nerf? Do you still consider the PvE-nerf justified?

2. Are you aware that the damage-trees are now less then viable in End Game Raiding and we are forced to spec into healing for raids?

3. Can we expect a small buff to our PvE damage in the future?

Here are threads I picked up from the first 10 pages of the PTS forum/Operatives forum for some reference:

Operative Nerf Concerns Devs Respond! (over 2500+ posts, CLOSED, now points to PVP forum)

Operatives/Scoundrels still want developer feedback about their PVE Damage (CLOSED, now points to PVP thread)

Bioware, you are hurting my PVE damage badly. Why? (22 pages, CLOSED)

Patch 1.1.1 changes to Operatives (31 pages)

Concealment in Eternity Vault

What the Scoundrel/Ops nerf did to PvE (11 pages, CLOSED)

Operative Nerf is too much (31 pages)

A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read] (20 pages)

Please dont publish 1.1.1 update until you are 100% sure about the nerfs (22 pages)

An educated look at the Operative nerf. (13 pages)

No one wants Operatives in group now. (8 pages)

How to balance the nerf to the Operative burst damage.

Thank you for ignoring us (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

So we can't PVE as Op now? (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

Devs respond to trivial issues and ignore 46 page thread regarding OPS Nerf (9 pages, CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

BioWare Proceeding with Scoundrel/IA Nerfs: Ignoring the Community since 2011 (CLOSED)

Can we get dev feedback for Ops/Scoundrels? (CLOSED)

Devs not answering for the Operative nerf (7 pages) (CLOSED)

Devs Please read .. re: Operative/Scoundrel Nerf (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

Has anyone actually tried Operative/Scoundrel @ 50 on test servre?? (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

operative nerf will destroy the class to the end (12 pages, CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

700+ expertise, 65+ VR pre 1.1 Op’s thoughts on proposed PTS nerf (11 pages)

The problem with how BW is handling this adjustment

Yet another Scrapper Scoundrel/Concealment Operative player asking for compensation (8 pages)

Patch 1.1.1 for PvE DPS Scoudrel/operative, Please Dont do that (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

Acid Blades / Flachette Rounds nerf is roughly an 11% damage nerf on PvE bosses. (CLOSED, now points to closed thread)

Knee-jerk over-nerf. Again. (8 pages, CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

If 1.1.1 goes live without reconsideration....... (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

With the new changes to Ops/Scoundrels have you thought of PvE? (CLOSED, now points to closed thread)

Setting an ugly precedent (CLOSED)

Cave to the whiners, Lets Nerf it up. (CLOSED)

Answer to "How much did the nerf hurt us" = ~12.5% less damage.

Agents: Least played & not chart toppers, Nerfed first? (13 pages)

Will Operatives be compenstated for the loss of damage?

Operative/Scoundrel healing/shared spec issues. (CLOSED)

Scoundrels/Ops (CLOSED)

Jug w 9.1k aoe and we get the nerf dart?

Operative nerf is crazy brutal

So now our eyes are finally opened.

The PvE consequenses for a Scrapper/Concealment. (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

PvP balancing should not affect PvE

Operative/Scoundrel Nerf is too much... (CLOSED)

R.I.P PvE operative DPS (CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

Since Bioware wont give us the reason...

Scoundrel after 1.1 - what went wrong? (Yes, again, but PvE)

ANALYSIS: Scoundrel is the Worst Class in the Game at Everything (18 pages)

Leveling as Scoundrel is much harder than before

Tired of the "our damage is fine" crowd ...

Reaction of a Battlemaster lvl 50 Operative (12 pages, CLOSED, points to now closed thread)

Lets get some perspective on operatives here. (CLOSED)

I had actually started this thread once before, but after 5 pages of pure 100% positive feedback, it got shut down.

To add insult to injury, the moderator requested to 'please continue this discussion on the PVP forum' (!)

If you are tired of being ignored, please keep this bumped.

Edit 10/2 (Edit2 9/3), research:

# dev posts/replies to inquisitor/counselor boards = 78

# dev posts/replies to warrior/knight boards = 43

# dev posts/replies to bh/trooper boards = 52

# dev posts/replies to agent/smuggler boards = 6 + 1 troll

I doubt we will ever get a BW direct response, as it will set them up for everyone demanding a direct response.

However I agree 100% with your questions.

I doubt we will ever get a BW direct response, as it will set them up for everyone demanding a direct response.

 

However I agree 100% with your questions.

Yeah BioWare will never give up a public response at least. I am not hating on BioWare, never did. There is alot of work that goes to make this MMO and in all honesty I still love it, with the nerf or without the nerf, just feels like i am playing on higher difficulty its'all. But yeah, operatives in pvp were supposed to be assassins that from time to time if they get lucky with crits would kill someone without them being able to react. that is if they didn't use they espace thingy.

Anyway this isn't about PvP. Our PvE damage has been lowered pretty drasticly. I now hardly get into any flashpoints if I say I am a concealment operative. But I think I can still stay up to par with most dps classes, well exept mercs since well, pressing one button does wonders apparently.

This takes me to my question : Nerf Operatives, ok. Leave Commandos/Merc like they are? huh?

I am not QQing here, not critising Bioware because they made an awesome game and I am sure these things will be solved in the end.

Keep in mind that all MMO's have these kinds of problems sooner or later and they ussally get solved sooner or later.

Again BioWare: Awesome game, great job. I've been waiting for this since KoToR and it lives up to my expectations.

Bioware take these things in consideration because it won't be fun for you too see soo many people unsubbing.

The way I see it is that the only real need to our PvE damage was the lose of 20% armour pen from Acid Blade.

It doesn't take a lot of brains to realise that -20% Arm Pen is significant over a long period end game boss fight.

The damage reduction from HS isn't a lot over a long fight, as your talking 3-4 max per boss fight, and against trash it's a big lose bit who cares in a raid situation ?

The changes to PvP I don't care about, even though imho its a buff.

So the real question to BW is :-

Based on recent data has the DPS on 8-16 man ops, for consealment spec'ed Operatives, still comparable to other DPS classes/spec's ? And if not ate we going to see a buff to rebalance us in the future ?

Warhammer Engineer here: History is going in circles. Still waiting for the tiniest boost to the weakest class since beta.

The interview with Gabe was perfect. No meat, barely any bone, mostly of hot air.

Do not hold your breath waiting for a solid explanation, a "Sorry, looks like we missed some aspect of the game." or even an adjustment in favor of the operatives any time soon.

There were very little PvE consequences that is why.

Grow up.

There were very little PvE consequences that is why.

 

Grow up.

Short response, insulting post, you don't play an operative in PvE past level 36 and post 1.1.1.b do you?

As for the OP, I've shelved my 50.

I'm at valor 20 at level 50 because, while I do find pvp enjoyable, it isn't everything in the game, plus I'm tired of being put up against premade teams.

I do not have fun doing dailies anymore, if I advertise "DPS LF HM <flashpoint here> and get invited, the very moment they see I'm concealment then drop me.

I've been told "Get a guild", I've been through five, I play on ebon hawk, every single guild I get into typically maybe has five people on at once, maybe four of them are 50 and they're all running OPs with their friends, then they finish up and log an alt, it's ridiculous.

So, thus, I find no enjoyment in PvE either, due to soloing everything (and not by choice), it's now taking me longer to even complete the Belsavis dailies, nevermind the Ilum ones where I have to actively avoid all enemies and get to the goal because I'm just not feeling having to spend ten minutes fighting a strong class enemy.

Oh and the daily heroics, hah, I still have my heroic 2 for Ilum and my heroic 4 for Belsavis to do, had em for a week, can't find anyone to team with and that IS with LFG or asking in general on fleet.

I'm giving this game until march 20th and after that if everything is in the same state, I'm gone.

There were very little PvE consequences that is why.

 

Grow up.

Please explain to us kids, how -20% armour penetration causes only a little consequence?

Please explain to us kids, how -20% armour penetration causes only a little consequence?

Guys.

Concealment is the Operatives PvP spec, not the PvE spec.

Really it's that simple.

Concealment is about burst DPS.

Seriously, look into Lethality, it is really good for PvE. If you want to be into raids and such, and don't want to be a healer, this is the spec you want.

Concealment is the Operatives PvP spec, not the PvE spec.

 

Concealment is about burst DPS.

 

Seriously, look into Lethality, it is really good for PvE. If you want to be into raids and such, and don't want to be a healer, this is the spec you want.

These sort of posts really annoy me. Just because you can't manage your energy correctly nor work out a good rotation for PvE doesn't mean it PvP only or that you can't make it work in PvE.

Every DPS spec should be viable in PvE otherwise it's a flawed system forcing you into one spec out of 3 (2 if you have a healing/tank tree), which is very poor design.

Plus without damage meters please show me which spec does more damage ?

There is zero reason Consealment spec can't work in PvE, and I do just fine in my guild, and no one complains .... Because skill > spec.

I have a Battlemaster/Rakata geared Op, cleared everything in 8man Nightmare EV and KP. We do 8 mans with 2 operatives (myself as dps, and an operative healer). I've been both concealment and lethality.

I'm still curious why everyone says Ops pve is terrible. Without dps meters or even a combat log, what are you basing this on? I've been watching pve videos of other classes and have been paying particular attention to the damage they dish out, and I think I'm able to keep up. Can't tell for sure until dps meters, but it just seems like everyones saying "Op dps is terrible" without providing any solid numbers or information. I have a 50 Arsenal Merc too, and I can tell it probably does do more damage, but not to the order of magnitude many people seem to claim.

The thing about running operations that has me concerned is our survivability and utility, not our damage. We lack many defensive cooldowns that other classes have, that make the healers have to put in a bit of extra effort. There are fights that all melee classes have extra problems.

Guys.

 

Concealment is the Operatives PvP spec, not the PvE spec.

 

Really it's that simple.

 

Concealment is about burst DPS.

 

Seriously, look into Lethality, it is really good for PvE. If you want to be into raids and such, and don't want to be a healer, this is the spec you want.

Have you ever played a DPS op in PVE? Lethality is the most broken least fun horrible tree there is. If that tree in op worked at all for PVE there would be far less PVE rage against this patch. Concealment is a far better PVE tree than Lethaility, far better. First off Lethality doesn't have enough DPS at all until you get Cull which is way high in the tree. Once you get it managing energy is a nightmare and if you keep your energy high you do so by limiting your DPS a ton. People say it is a kiting tree but you need to stab someone to get a TA to do the cull. Most people who try to make it work go half up the healing tree so it is really a healing spec with more damage not really a DPS spec.

Why they aren't fixing the Lethality tree which is totally worthless should be causing more rage this the changes to concealment. That said, concealment is still far better post path for PVE and the changes only affect very high levels with acid blade. As long as you can stay 2 levels above everything and keep both your gear and your companion's gear current and mostly blue you are fine. It is harder than most but still doable. Raids and end game are a problem. People like me who like to PVE and don't want to be a healer and picked op because they like the rogue style are ticked off and rightfully so. I would be good with them fixing ether DPS tree myself. If they don't I'll finish leveling with concealment until I hit a wall, then around level 50 I'll make him a healer and have fun playing my SI for DPS and likely shelve my agent once I get through the very cool storyline.

These sort of posts really annoy me. Just because you can't manage your energy correctly nor work out a good rotation for PvE doesn't mean it PvP only or that you can't make it work in PvE.

 

Every DPS spec should be viable in PvE otherwise it's a flawed system forcing you into one spec out of 3 (2 if you have a healing/tank tree), which is very poor design.

 

Plus without damage meters please show me which spec does more damage ?

 

There is zero reason Consealment spec can't work in PvE, and I do just fine in my guild, and no one complains .... Because skill > spec.

Sorry but no.

Concealment is about Burst damage. In PvP you need burst which is why there were so many Concealment Ops pre-balance (it wasn't a nerf guys, it was a balance patch because you guys were so overpowered it wasn't funny).

Lethality may have some energy problems true; but for a raid I would rather have a Lethality specced DPS than a Concealment DPS because much of Concealment's DPS is about the stealth opener. You can't do that reliably in a raid, or even FPs.

Lethality is about sustained DPS, and you are right that it isn't worth it until you can get Cull. So what do you do? Spec as a Healer or Concealment until you get high enough to get Cull and then have at it.

(it wasn't a nerf guys, it was a balance patch because you guys were so overpowered it wasn't funny).

 

Thank you for this, as it shows me you know nothing about this class and spec.

It was only silly OP when you could over stack buffs (ie pre 1.1), after that we was annoying only with 3 second stuns. Now however after the nerf you are calling a balance, actually made the good players better ... And IMHO we are far better in PvP now than before.

Yes we lost burst damage on ONE skill, and less knockdown time, but with not filling the resolve bar, we are even more powerful than before - if you are skilled.

Since the patch my PvP has improved no end, and I'm loving it even more.

But you still provide no PROOF that one spec does more damage than another, and you keep saying Consealment can't PvE DPS, where real players here say we could before, and are at a loss why we Lost 20% arm pen which hurts our PvE damage.

This thread is about asking BW why our PvE was hurt, if you think we should be another spec please keep it to yourself, until you can prove it or BW say this was the intention.

Gabe says we were nerfed and are now balanced with everyone else based on some bizarre, under-described point system, so that was their direct feedback.

Their balance system ends up with some really even percentages. Almost like it is arbitrary.

Thank you for this, as it shows me you know nothing about this class and spec.

 

It was only silly OP when you could over stack buffs (ie pre 1.1), after that we was annoying only with 3 second stuns. Now however after the nerf you are calling a balance, actually made the good players better ... And IMHO we are far better in PvP now than before.

 

Yes we lost burst damage on ONE skill, and less knockdown time, but with not filling the resolve bar, we are even more powerful than before - if you are skilled.

 

Since the patch my PvP has improved no end, and I'm loving it even more.

 

But you still provide no PROOF that one spec does more damage than another, and you keep saying Consealment can't PvE DPS, where real players here say we could before, and are at a loss why we Lost 20% arm pen which hurts our PvE damage.

 

This thread is about asking BW why our PvE was hurt, if you think we should be another spec please keep it to yourself, until you can prove it or BW say this was the intention.

You were overpowered even after the buff stacks were removed. I had 12% expertise and a champion geared Operative would open up on me and I had 10% health left by the time I got up.

I am wearing heavy armor as a Jugg and that was ridiculous.

Learn to play your class. You can still stun players for a significant amount of time as in reality Jarring Strike is still a 3 second stun (unless you pop your get out of CC ability) because not only is there a 1.5 second stun on the ability now, the get up from off your face animation is still another 1.5 seconds or so.

And since Jarring Strike no longer fills the resolve bar you can stun them again with either Flash Grenade or Debilitate.

The only difference is you won't be gibbing players within that 3 seconds like you were before. You were overpowered. Deal with it.

With the amount of boss immunity phases and short burst phases, it really hurts lethality for DPS. For instance Soa, Phase 2 with mindtraps, by the time you get to the point you can Cull its dead, Phase 3 he pops out of immunity for what 8secondsish if your on the spot and fast you'll get off a Cull. Still for Soa I would like a concealment Op to burst those Mindtraps and the boss. Even if they do not have their from stealth opener, BS/Shiv can still put up good numbers for a quick burst.

A lot of bosses you cannot just DoT stack and rotate in Cull. Vs a non-medic spec'd Op, Sniper is much better for damage.(if you still wanted the IA base.)

With the amount of boss immunity phases and short burst phases, it really hurts lethality for DPS. For instance Soa, Phase 2 with mindtraps, by the time you get to the point you can Cull its dead, Phase 3 he pops out of immunity for what 8secondsish if your on the spot and fast you'll get off a Cull. Still for Soa I would like a concealment Op to burst those Mindtraps and the boss. Even if they do not have their from stealth opener, BS/Shiv can still put up good numbers for a quick burst.

A lot of bosses you cannot just DoT stack and rotate in Cull. Vs a non-medic spec'd Op, Sniper is much better for damage.(if you still wanted the IA base.)

SOA is the only Operation boss that I know of that has immunity phases.

The others do not. Plus with Lethality you are bypassing most of the bosses armor because Cull adds internal damage to poisoned targets.

Are there any "target dummy" mobs to test our dps against other classes? Something that lets us use backstab. It just seems like nobody knows how much dps we really have, and everything is speculation.

There's a Champion mob on Ilum near the crates needed for a (broken) daily to the north of the main Imp base. I've seen people "claim" to test their individual dps on this singular mob.

it wasn't a nerf guys, it was a balance patch because you guys were so overpowered it wasn't funny).

 

Reduced damage, reduced stun, reduced armor penetration. Clearly not a nerf!

And all this talk about Concealment/Scrapper being a burst tree for PvP? Just an excuse because you couldn't dig up any good arguments as to why a PvE nerf was needed.

I'm sorry, but that's what it is. Look at the two trees. You have survivability (which usually means PvP) in both Scrapper and Dirty Fighting. I'd say it's pretty clear that the intention was to make all trees viable for PvP. Furthermore, once you've got Pugnacity and 2 x UH ready, Scrapper actually has a nice enough flow for sustained damage in PvE, far better than Dirty Fighting, which just seems like Leela's prom dress made of carpet remnants. It has good things in it, but it's just random and not very well thought out.

Many of the talents in all three trees are marginal at best in PvE, and no serious raider would every pick those as anything but filler. How anyone can declare a particular tree PvP only at this point is a mystery to me. It's even more of a mystery that you'd say it about the tree that uses the signature weapon of the class the most, rather than the more generic shared tree.

Sorry but no.

 

Concealment is about Burst damage. In PvP you need burst which is why there were so many Concealment Ops pre-balance (it wasn't a nerf guys, it was a balance patch because you guys were so overpowered it wasn't funny).

 

Lethality may have some energy problems true; but for a raid I would rather have a Lethality specced DPS than a Concealment DPS because much of Concealment's DPS is about the stealth opener. You can't do that reliably in a raid, or even FPs.

 

Lethality is about sustained DPS, and you are right that it isn't worth it until you can get Cull. So what do you do? Spec as a Healer or Concealment until you get high enough to get Cull and then have at it.

I always seemed to think that people went Concealment/Scrapper because that was the definitive spec for our advanced class along with our heal spec. I've never used the other dps tree and I'm not the kind of person who min/maxes the game, though I never heard any good things about it. The other spec is shared with Gunslinger/Sniper and is not what playing a Scoundrel/Operative is all about.

But could it be that people don't want to spec into Dirty Fighting/Lethality? I've never had any desire to. What's wrong with just playing the way you like. I find that there is too much WoW mentality here where players seem to want to think that one spec has to be a pvp tree. I think I will continue being a Scrapper because that's what I enjoy being. Isn't that what playing the game is all about?

Nerfing for the sake of pvp and the consequences it has for pve is nothing new. It feels very cheap to hand wave it saying "Oh, well, this spec was designed for pvp." Bioware is new at this so I don't honestly believe they know what they are doing. Knocking 20%'s off of skills' effectiveness and in one case, 50% off a skill's effectiveness. These are HUGE numbers. The 20% is a huge number. Nerfs this big all at once tend to have strong negative impacts without any sort of give and take. It doesn't matter if you consider it a pvp spec or not.

Dishing out huge nerfs fueled by number crunching alone and saying it is balanced without any feedback or player input or even tracking how the class does yourself is a rather unfortunate way of doing things. And of course, the not considering the effects on pve at all. Believe it or not, people play the game to have fun, not to be optimal and min and max, so there are plenty of other people out there like me who play scrapper and who are more pve than pvp.

You can say that a spec has to be a certain way, used for a certain manner of play, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to subscribe to that way of thinking.

I always seemed to think that people went Concealment/Scrapper because that was the definitive spec for our advanced class along with our heal spec. I've never used the other dps tree and I'm not the kind of person who min/maxes the game, though I never heard any good things about it. The other spec is shared with Gunslinger/Sniper and is not what playing a Scoundrel/Operative is all about.

Exactly. Like I also said above, it's the tree that really uses the signature weapon of the class. Dirty Fighting on the other hand is much less interesting as it's shared with Gunslinger. And honestly I'd rather play the ranged version of that tree without having to worry about running out of UH all the time.

You were overpowered even after the buff stacks were removed. I had 12% expertise and a champion geared Operative would open up on me and I had 10% health left by the time I got up.

 

I am wearing heavy armor as a Jugg and that was ridiculous.

 

Learn to play your class. You can still stun players for a significant amount of time as in reality Jarring Strike is still a 3 second stun (unless you pop your get out of CC ability) because not only is there a 1.5 second stun on the ability now, the get up from off your face animation is still another 1.5 seconds or so.

 

And since Jarring Strike no longer fills the resolve bar you can stun them again with either Flash Grenade or Debilitate.

 

The only difference is you won't be gibbing players within that 3 seconds like you were before. You were overpowered. Deal with it.

As much as I appreciate the discussion, this thread is about our PVE-damage, and Bioware's lack of response.

Let's keep it that way. Thank you!