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Hardmode bosses need mechanics not unfairness


Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
02.20.2012 , 06:57 AM | #511
Quote: Originally Posted by hillltrot View Post
WoW is not played because it got lucky, used Jedi mind control tricks, used a movie franchise as a base, or is completely free. They haven't lowered prices once!

...

Their story isn't that great, it's the gameplay which gets people to repeatedly play their game. All of the other games you listed are niche.
WoW is played not because it was well designed, challenging, or even a good game.
WoW is played because, if you want to play with your friends/family, that's what they're playing.

It's the freaking Facebook of MMOs for crying out loud.

And those friends/family aren't necessarily playing because they enjoy it, they're playing because WoW is designed to force you to keep playing if you want the option to keep playing.

No, they don't delete your characters. But once you get behind you stay behind for a long time, it's the nature of a grind-based MMO. Sure they dumb things down with each new expansion pack, but that doesn't make that fact any less true.

Oh, and the idea that EQ1, EQ2, and LotRO failed is outright laughable. They may not have been pulling in WoW's numbers even at their prime, but they did not fail. Have EQ1 and EQ2 fallen off in numbers as time has gone on? Probably, I haven't looked into them recently, but that doesn't make them a failure.

But LotRO and even it's red-headed stepbrother/cousin DDO are (or were before the holidays when SWTOR rolled around) doing extremely well after switching to a F2P model... which isn't even F2P so much as a Micro-transactions (F2P)/Subscription-optional model.

Quote: Originally Posted by hillltrot View Post
"I've used Commodore 64, Atari, Apple II, OS/2, Next, System/360, and System/370 operating systems. I've never used Windows or DOS, and given the mentality and narrowmindedness of those I see here I'm thankful for that!"
Very appropriate analogy, though you could have used a few more modern competitors in there.
Just because something is popular doesn't mean it is better, well designed, or even "doing it right", it just means it's popular.

PS: Windows is a horrible OS. It's popular primarily because it's designed so that the average idiot can use it successfully, as anyone the least bit gifted/knowledgeable in the IT field can learn by watching their colleagues work.
And yes, many of us that realize this fact still use Windows. Just like the WoW example, it punishes you for not using it, only in this case it has to do with Microsoft being a ***** when it comes to cross platform formats as well as having to put more effort to make the average PC game work than the cost of a cheap Dell is worth.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
02.20.2012 , 07:22 AM | #512
Quote: Originally Posted by Frozenshiva View Post
Back to the topic however.
Using "FUN" as a grading scale is foolish. Fun is SUBJECTIVE. As is difficulty and challenge in this case.
When it comes to MMO's FUN, DIFFICULT and CHALLENGING are determined by the majority and NOT the minority.
It's painful and annoying to understand and admit, but its the truth.
Most people (the majority) will admit they think illegal drugs are FUN.
That doesn't make them good for you. Or legal for that matter.

Now that my snarky sarcastic reply is out of the way, here's a more appropriate analogy:
Ask a small child what is "FUN", and each time you'll get a different answer.

Not necessarily because whatever they say is FUN each time is any more FUN than the last time, but because their mind only picks up on what it is they're doing and/or currently want to do.

In other words, the majority may very well believe the WoW style of MMO is FUN, but the majority also don't know anything but WoW.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

Onnya's Avatar


Onnya
02.20.2012 , 07:32 AM | #513
Quote: Originally Posted by Frozenshiva View Post
Using "FUN" as a grading scale is foolish. Fun is SUBJECTIVE. As is difficulty and challenge in this case.
When it comes to MMO's FUN, DIFFICULT and CHALLENGING are determined by the majority and NOT the minority.
It's painful and annoying to understand and admit, but its the truth.
If fun is subjective, it cannot be determined by the majority, but by the individual: what you said is simply a contradiction in terms.

Quote: Originally Posted by Frozenshiva View Post
Uninformed ignorant people who pass their opinions as facts is a whole other matter however.
So I guess you know for a fact that the majority in this game appreciates enrages and it's not just an opinion. It's interesting how you got that kind of information... Because judging from what I've seen on the forums I am inclined to think people are not happy with this and see it as a lazy, unimaginative and frustrating solution.

AlyII's Avatar


AlyII
02.20.2012 , 07:35 AM | #514
Quote: Originally Posted by Frozenshiva View Post
Back to the topic however.
Using "FUN" as a grading scale is foolish. Fun is SUBJECTIVE. As is difficulty and challenge in this case.
When it comes to MMO's FUN, DIFFICULT and CHALLENGING are determined by the majority and NOT the minority.
It's painful and annoying to understand and admit, but its the truth.

As i already said a dozen times over in this topic. I agree with you on the fact that fights could use more mechanics. I never once contested that. However using the same ignorant speech, about enrages being poor design, is childish to say the least.

That is my issue with you and Loendar. You two are both unwilling and incapable of understanding and compromising on the matter. Your knowledge in game design, let alone MMO design is utterly lackluster, which is completely understandable since you two more than likely don't work in this department or in the industry altogether.
I have no issue with people being uninformed or stating their opinions. Uninformed ignorant people who pass their opinions as facts is a whole other matter however.
As you already pointed out, "fun" is subjective, that's why "fun", "difficult" or "challenging" can only be determined by each individual and not by "majorities" or "minorities". "Votes" on the other hand are objective, can be counted and their purpose is to determine "majorities" and "minorities". And this falls in the field of poilitcs, and we are not discussing politics, but we are talking about a game and having fun.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.20.2012 , 08:45 AM | #515
Too much thread to read, so apologies if any repeat ideas here, but just a couple unrelated-ish thoughts...

1) If 3 people (Sin, Mar, Op) can clear HMs, including the bosses with "intrusive" rage timers (e.g. Bulwark) with a companion, the timers are not tuned too stringently, and if you can't pass the DPS check, it's due to poor play more than poor gear. Even with groups that don't follow the tank+2DPS+healer template, as long as there is at least 1 real DPS and some brains in the rest of the group, you should be able to pass the DPS check (I practically guarantee that a player tank or healer can outdamage a DPS companion).

2) There are very few bosses where the only mechanic to consider is enrage timers. The timer forces you to find tactics to deal with a boss' other mechanics efficiently rather than just kite/heal through them.

I'll happily admit I'd like to see a larger variety of mechanics employed by bosses, and an increase in the number to deal with in HM (too many are just "interrupt the nasty ability" or "pay attention to something glaringly obvious in the battlefield"), but the rage timers really aren't a problem.

At least in my experience thus far, the little trio I've been doing HMs with tends to hit rage timer on a new boss the first and second time, until we figure out a quick way to deal with any mechanics that limit DPS uptime, and then we start clearing with no problem. The only thing that really causes issues with rage timers is if I (Mar) have to spend too much time off the boss or the Op isn't able to contribute some DPS.

Loendar's Avatar


Loendar
02.20.2012 , 09:13 AM | #516
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Too much thread to read, so apologies if any repeat ideas here, but just a couple unrelated-ish thoughts...

1) If 3 people (Sin, Mar, Op) can clear HMs, including the bosses with "intrusive" rage timers (e.g. Bulwark) with a companion, the timers are not tuned too stringently, and if you can't pass the DPS check, it's due to poor play more than poor gear. Even with groups that don't follow the tank+2DPS+healer template, as long as there is at least 1 real DPS and some brains in the rest of the group, you should be able to pass the DPS check (I practically guarantee that a player tank or healer can outdamage a DPS companion).
Just out of curiousity, since you didn't state it here. Your three person group is geared in what fashion? HM gear (Tionese), End HM gear (Columni) or Ops gear?

Being over-geared for the encounters isn't really what we are discussing here and I'm hard pressed to believe that a 3-some of fresh 50's are able to beat the enrage timer at all from personal experience of building a 'normal' group to test with.

Razmahtaz's Avatar


Razmahtaz
02.26.2012 , 02:57 AM | #517
The whole enrage timer stuff is a DIRECT result of the small group size, there is no way to argue it.

It is related to the whole solo path to cap VS grouping and risk/v/reward and all that but the core problem is the same.

If you have 4 people making up a group, the ultimate end of making content 'hard' for those is more strict than if you were designing content for 6 people to be hard for 6 (or extrapolating to raids, 12 instead of 24). Dang, didn't eq1, the mother of all MMORPG's have 48 person raids? (not that I"m advocating that )

In a larger group size mechanic, there is more flexibility, 2 of the 6 could be less than optimal IF 2 of the other 6 were above expected and the group can still clear a zone, and the zone still be 'hard' (ie if 2 of the other 4 weren't above average they would still fail)

I'm a current eq2 raider and I really don't like the super small group sizes in swtor, but if they are going to go that route, it would seem to me that there are better mechanics, like a dps floor on a particular name in a group, or something than the current hamfisted timer fail.

I've always been a fan of making 'hard' mode fights 'hard' due to coordination primarily, rather than gear or group makeup. Though again, with 4 people in a group, its harder to make coordination a factor when the requirement of each 'role' is so set in stone by the lean makeup.

You can rip off any mechanic from other games to make stuff hard, more aoe that needs to be jousted, death prevents, dps floors, dps ceilings, waves of adds, clicky items, adds to be mezzed, order of mobs, cures of effects, interrupts, positioning, special item progression debuffs, off tanking (kinda' useless with 4grp setup), straight gear checks, etc...

I know swtor does a bunch of these already, what I don't get is why some combo of the above can't be used to make a 'hard' mob 'hard' instead of some arbitrary enrage insta-kill timer BS.

It just seems lazy.

Razmahtaz's Avatar


Razmahtaz
02.26.2012 , 03:10 AM | #518
Just for an example, my favorite raid boss in eq2 was designed by 'timetraveling' dev in the Setinal Fate expanion pack.

The whole fight was set on a floating grid, and it had a special effect where abilities that normally you couldn't move to cast, were modified so you can cast on the move.

Then during the fight there were 4 orbs in the corners you can kill, each would add a buff to the name (and would reward better loot if you killed them) but make the mob harder (one added a aoe, one added some periodic adds, etc)

During the fight random block on the grid (say 40x40 in the 'zone') would change color. White ones would drop to the floor 2s later and if you were on it you would die. Orange ones would drain your power but give you more dmg. Blue ones would hurt you but give you more healing. Green ones would give you more dmg protection.

So during the fight you would be running around, trying to keep tank on green, heals on blue, and dps on orange, while avoiding the white and moving the whole raid to avoid the gaps in the floor that would build up over time from the white dropping blocks (also an ultimate creative dps check)

Now THATS what a call a creative hard mode fight. Take a lesson bioware (or hire timetraveling)

Loendar's Avatar


Loendar
02.26.2012 , 07:12 AM | #519
Quote: Originally Posted by Razmahtaz View Post
Just for an example, my favorite raid boss in eq2 was designed by 'timetraveling' dev in the Setinal Fate expanion pack.

The whole fight was set on a floating grid, and it had a special effect where abilities that normally you couldn't move to cast, were modified so you can cast on the move.

Then during the fight there were 4 orbs in the corners you can kill, each would add a buff to the name (and would reward better loot if you killed them) but make the mob harder (one added a aoe, one added some periodic adds, etc)

During the fight random block on the grid (say 40x40 in the 'zone') would change color. White ones would drop to the floor 2s later and if you were on it you would die. Orange ones would drain your power but give you more dmg. Blue ones would hurt you but give you more healing. Green ones would give you more dmg protection.

So during the fight you would be running around, trying to keep tank on green, heals on blue, and dps on orange, while avoiding the white and moving the whole raid to avoid the gaps in the floor that would build up over time from the white dropping blocks (also an ultimate creative dps check)

Now THATS what a call a creative hard mode fight. Take a lesson bioware (or hire timetraveling)
And that's the kind of thing a lot of have been advocating for through-out the thread.

You are from EQ2 like I am where a lot more thought goes into encounter design than it does here and apparently (based on the rabid clinging to it by the WoW folks) happens in WoW.

Sadly, even the myriad examples that have been given will fall on deaf ears because we are about 30 seconds away from a WoW person popping on to tell us that DPS won't do their job without an enrage timer OR it makes every encounter runnable by a full group of healers. Neither is remotely true, of course, but .... incoming.

Kyng's Avatar


Kyng
05.08.2012 , 03:42 PM | #520
Quote: Originally Posted by Onnya View Post
If fun is subjective, it cannot be determined by the majority, but by the individual: what you said is simply a contradiction in terms.

So I guess you know for a fact that the majority in this game appreciates enrages and it's not just an opinion. It's interesting how you got that kind of information... Because judging from what I've seen on the forums I am inclined to think people are not happy with this and see it as a lazy, unimaginative and frustrating solution.
And you would be 100% correct...Problem is what you're mainly dealing with around here are elitist gamers who will soon be wondering why they are all by their lonesome on a failing game while they cling to their "you're just not good, or skilled enough," mantra. This is basically the same-type arguments that split the SWG Community so many years ago...It's the elitist hardcore players vs. the casual, or I guess, non-hardcore crowd...And I've already seen the way this ends...The hardcore crowd is 100 times more vocal and more insistent that they are right...So they will win...And they will be playing all by their lonesome...On a game that failed to meet expectations or the needs of the majority of their subscribers...

The whole "subjective fun" argument is hilarious! I can promise that if folks are not having fun, they quit...Period, end of conversation...And in order to have fun you HAVE to WIN a lot more than you lose...Simple is it not? So...Those people who get to CL 50, do their daily stuff to gear up a bit, then get completely wiped by the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Boss they come across in HM Flashpoints, Corellia 4 man heroic, and Operations...Well...They are not having fun...And they absolutely do quit...They all quit...And they quit because it's not freaking fun to get wiped with your friends over and over and over again...

The problem is not having challenging end game content that should require the best gear...Every successful game has it...The problem is this game has no progression...The content is there with Operations and HM Flashpoints...But there is no obvious progression to make the climb to the top more FUN...This whole idea that these gamers are not good enough to complete content...well...it's impossible to describe how ludicrous and elitist that opinion is...The ones I know that have quit this game, for this very reason, certainly had no problems holding up their end in other games we played together over the past decade of MMO gaming...And it's not their problem regardless, it's BioWare's job to make it accomplish-able, within reason, if they want the Sub money from these players...But this...This is beyond anything I've ever seen...It's just not fun...It's not a matter of qq-ing or any of that crap...It's not seeing the clear and do-able path to the better gear, and not feeling heroic whatsoever in a RPG-type game...That is a 100% deal-breaker...There is no progression of boss-types...It's a terribly poorly designed end game and SUPER lazy boss development (immunity to everything...lol)...Not to mention the easiest way to gear up is through PvP on a PvE Server...That really went over great in my Guild! Thanks BioWare!!! There actually IS a reason some Guilds chose a PvE Server you know...Well maybe you don't know...And that is the problem...

All I know is this...My Guild planned for this Game since before the announcement (there were plenty of rumors by that time) ...All the way back in 2007 while we were still on SWG...We started with 25 at launch and now we have 4...maybe 5 that are still playing...The main complaints I hear are no fun end Game content that we can do as a Guild and accomplish (wiped WAY too much by Bosses in Ops, and HM Flashpoints)...And the feeling of being forced to PvP for end game gear...Now I'm not saying we are the greatest and most skilled Guild out there, because clearly were not...But we did exhaust a TON of endgame content in SWG and LOTRO together...So clearly we do not suck...But what you elitists fail to realize is...It does not matter...We should be good enough to do some things together so we can work our way up to the big stuff...And I'm not talking about boring *** daily's...Not for $15 a month...And at the end of the day, when all us crappy gamers quit, you elitists will be all by your lonesome...And there will be NO new development because there is not enough money coming in...And we'll all be playing, and paying for, another MMO where the Devs get it...

And if you don't think this is a MAJOR contributing factor to the massive population drop we've seen over the past couple months well...I got nothing more for you...Because you're never gonna get it...

/endrant
- Legion Of Coruscant - LOC - Join The Fight!

No! Try Not...Do or do not...There is no try...Grand Master Yoda