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Hardmode bosses need mechanics not unfairness


hillltrot's Avatar


hillltrot
02.01.2012 , 08:13 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Loendar View Post
There is SO much more to encounter design beyond what the DPS is doing - or, at least, there should be. When that is what you are happy with, that is what you get.

I'm well-versed in the systems I have been exposed to and I can detect a lazy implementation even if you can't.

Yes - DPS wins the fight. You win. Nobody can argue with your astonishing logic.

Why does every fight have to be distilled down to that equation to make it work?

Look through the tons of posts on this thread besides those from me with plenty of other people giving suggestions and pull your head out of what WoW has directed you to and ask for more for a change.

And - for the love of all things Holy - I'm going to stop responding to anyone that continues to claim that they have read what I've typed and then say that 'because it impacts me'. It doesn't - it never has - and that is irrelevent to the discussion. If you can't be bothered to read what has been said I can't be bothered to treat you like you have a valid opinion.
Well, maybe there's hope here.

My problem is that you say this was horrible for a well designed MMO to do.

Now that you've agreed that a well designed MMO which has had millions of customers does this, we can get beyond trying to say that SWTOR was poorly designed compared to other MMOs and that you were simply expecting more.

The Base model of an MMO is Tank, Damage, Healing.

It's boring and stupid.

The big bad monsters are somehow convinced that they have to hit the hardest to hit, hardest to damage target who coincidentally is likely to be doing the least damage. Say what? At least SWTOR makes this somewhat believable in saying that the Tanks have to use mind control to make this work.

While this is happening the healer sits back and casts heals on the tank while being almost totally unmolested. Seriously?

So to try and make this entertaining, MMOs force people to jump at certain times, move a certain way at certain times, move to certain spots, change tanks, use more than one tank, stop moving or attacking at certain times, face their toons a certain way at certain times; and the one you seem to hate the most, complete the encounter in a certain amount of time.

Regardless, there is usually one big bad guy and some peons. The peons and the big bad guy always has an IQ of less than 25. He never focus fires the Healer(s) and then moves on to the DPS.

All the mechanics are almost always contrived, you have to read about them ahead of time before you do the fight. Those who fight the boss first read their logs to see what happened. Nobody gets to the "major" boss and completes it first time through skill and competence. No, they have to figure out the moves and where to stand and so on. Boss fights are boring homework assignments instead of being actually interesting.

This is basically true of all MMOs. This is why people do PvP. The MMO model was broke to begin with.

Only one MMO I know of tried to break the model. DDO is truly a different gameplay at least until you get to raiding where they relented and decided to use the same old MMO model. Not that everyone didn't try to play DDO like every other MMO. In fact, the lack of familiarity was it's actual downfall.

So, after seeing what happened to DDO, do you actually think that Bioware and EA were going to think waaay outside of the box with the investment they were making? No. They'd rather add smoke and mirrors to make the standard MMO model seem interesting.

Now are you looking for something truly different, or are you wanting Bioware to add better and more expensive smoke and mirrors?

Hxxr's Avatar


Hxxr
02.01.2012 , 10:11 PM | #112
Just checking in to say: Tune up the difficulty of 4 man content.
Kaon felt about right (last group of bosses need a buff though) as a new flashpoint and I hope the ones to come follow in line being progressively more difficult.

Did I already tell you Bulkwark is one of my favorite bosses? A lot to manage and no time just standing there poking your nose unless you want to see him rage. :>

Itchy_Bum's Avatar


Itchy_Bum
02.02.2012 , 03:01 AM | #113
I am for enrage timers.

I remember when heroics were brought into WOW BC. At very beginning they were kind of rough, but after awhile they were ganked to be more accessible.

If there were no enrage timers a half decent tank and healer could 2 man most heroics. As it is some of them could be 3 manned + companion if really needed. No enrage timer would just be free gear to good tank/heals tag teams.

The enrage timer is there so that tanks and healers have to bring dps players.

Seriously though:
(1) WoW BC, after one of the patches, heroics were 2 mannable, it felt bad being no. 1 on damage and dps as tank and the healer being no. 2 on dps
(2) WoW LK many of the fights again could be 2mannable
(3) WoW Cata some of the bosses can be just about soloed

I have found many bosses that seemed to not have enrage timers on HM or the enrage timers were so ridiculously long that the only way you could not do it, was if you were trying to run it with 3 players or less with mediocre gear.

To be honest the only bosses that sometimes I see enrage timers on are sith entity, vokk, kilran, that bonus boss in taral v, HK47...

Except for HK47 when he goes with stealth, the tank can still stay up for a good 30 - 45 seconds if they use cool downs, relics and their DPS (beneficial tanking abilities). Being good and quick with the interups helps a lot too...

On a side note, if you are having trouble with enrage timer maybe your team mates should be using stims to give a slight increase to their dps output.

Yourfacehi's Avatar


Yourfacehi
02.02.2012 , 03:06 AM | #114
To the OP: I personally think HM flashpoints are a complete joke. I run them daily in about 30mins-1hr and they require 0 skill. As a new 50 (literally turned 50 that day) I was tanking false emperor, esseless and taral V (in modded orange gear with a few purple 124 mods). I never even bothered with normal flashpoints.

With one or more people in even low level 50 PVE gear (even that tionese crap) you can blow through them. I wish hardmodes were, you know, actually hard.

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
02.02.2012 , 03:15 AM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Agenteusa View Post

Normal Ops are easier than HM FPs imo.
I would agree if they werent bugged to ****. The amount of random deaths caused solely by bugs was staggering when we did EV on normal. And the HMs were buggy as heck as well, but it seems Bioware actually managed to fix some of them.

"Great, it bugged out again. Now we need all to die again"
"How am I supposed to die to this guy slapping me with a wet noodle?"
"Well I dunno, deal!"
"Argh! Well brb getting a drink"

ps. I kind of agree on the base MMO "holy trinity" model of tank, healer, dps being boring, but at least Bioware has inserted plenty of boss mechanics in the game and the characters for the most part have plenty of power chains, cooldowns, procs, and dependencies to make playing the character interesting. (at least until the group is so geared up content becomes trivial again)
"What is a Sith? Over time, the beliefs have changed, but one constant has remained. The imposition of one's will on the force, on the environment surrounding one, on the galaxy itself." - Darth Wyyrlok III

mArchangel's Avatar


mArchangel
02.02.2012 , 03:50 AM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by Yourfacehi View Post
To the OP: I personally think HM flashpoints are a complete joke. I run them daily in about 30mins-1hr and they require 0 skill. As a new 50 (literally turned 50 that day) I was tanking false emperor, esseless and taral V (in modded orange gear with a few purple 124 mods). I never even bothered with normal flashpoints.

With one or more people in even low level 50 PVE gear (even that tionese crap) you can blow through them. I wish hardmodes were, you know, actually hard.
You do realise that Tionese 'crap' is actually what you fight for when you do hard modes?
Thus I don't believe you troll! 30min-1hr LMFAO you lousy liar! LOL


P.S.: And as my first reply post to the thread I opened I say I am not AGAINST enrage timers per se but I am against the ridiculous short time spans. HK-47 enrages after 3 minutes-please by the love of god, who does agree with that not being way too short?
It's not fun-it's rubbish! Period. Eat it or leave it.
'If all children would mature according to early indications, the world would be full of geniuses.' - J.W. v.Goethe

mArchangel's Avatar


mArchangel
02.02.2012 , 03:54 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by Loendar View Post
Enrage timers are a worthless and lazy way to design content in any game. Either I can kill the mob with my group, or I can't. Why should it matter how long it takes me to accomplish my goal? Dead is dead.

I'm from EQ2 and that mechanic, while it does exist on some of the higher end content, is used as an obvious timer mechanic and doesn't just wipe you but starts ramping up the difficulty while leaving you a chance if you start executing well.

Enrage timers shouldn't exist in any fashion - they aren't fun, they aren't challenging and they bring nothing to the event. Pure Dev Lazy.
Amen to that bro. I knew I was not alone in my opinion. FPs have been rushed out of the door like the engine, a huge mess because EA most likely told BW to get moving. Fix it while they already earn our hard earned cash. Wrong!!!!!!! Fanboys won't see that of course. Oh and yes we are all noobs! LOLOLOL
'If all children would mature according to early indications, the world would be full of geniuses.' - J.W. v.Goethe

mArchangel's Avatar


mArchangel
02.02.2012 , 03:55 AM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Chunkie View Post
It's obvious the issue here is that you're not as experienced or skilled as you think you are. I personally think HM is too easy and should be made a little more difficult. HM is the end-game of end-game, or it should be. It should be only doable with a well equipped and experienced group, not random PUGs, which is what it is right now. Or at least with a PUG it should be a 50/50 chance to finish it.

There's not challenge in this game. I forgave the 1-50 easy-mode, but HM is a joke. It's not hard at all.
Complete rubble! Enough said!
'If all children would mature according to early indications, the world would be full of geniuses.' - J.W. v.Goethe

mArchangel's Avatar


mArchangel
02.02.2012 , 03:58 AM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Loendar View Post
The terrible players you mention will never make it to the enrage timer - they will be dead way before that.

If you are able to solo the mob - more power to you. Who cares? The chance that you will need the gear if you are a one-man wrecking machine is minimal at best so why would you bother to start with.

Again - maybe it is a difference to what people expect because WoW does it and what I expect because I don't play games that assign arbitrary caps on my progression based on a 'timer of the day'. I can solo anything I want in EQ2 and if I can kill it - I get the reward.. if I can't, I move on.

The game is to kill the mob - not beat the clock.
Amen again bro! Starting to love ya!!!
'If all children would mature according to early indications, the world would be full of geniuses.' - J.W. v.Goethe

mArchangel's Avatar


mArchangel
02.02.2012 , 04:02 AM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Chunkie View Post
HM is the end-game of end-game, or it should be. It should be only doable with a well equipped and experienced group, not random PUGs, which is what it is right now.
You are more than wrong!!!!! HM FPs are there to gear up for the HARD stuff which I call RAID/OPS. If you think HM FPs are supposed to be what you say I think you should leave this thread as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Period.

Seriously.....
'If all children would mature according to early indications, the world would be full of geniuses.' - J.W. v.Goethe