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The role of a Defense shadow/assassin in Op groups

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
The role of a Defense shadow/assassin in Op groups

Eirienie's Avatar


Eirienie
01.29.2012 , 11:38 PM | #1
I'm a new level 50 Jedi Shadow, and specced thoroughly through the defense tree for tanking power.

But in running red reaper at level 48, it's a little apparent that Shadows don't possess the same pure baseline defense capability as say, a Guardian. So I'm curious, what exactly is the role of a Defense Shadow in an Ops group? Do we main tank anything? Offtank some adds? Pull bosses off of the main tanks for a short breather?

What are you experiences with shadows in Ops groups? Just looking for an idea of what I am going to be doing or responsible for...and if I should just go to boring ol' dps Shadow.

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
01.29.2012 , 11:44 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Eirienie View Post
I'm a new level 50 Jedi Shadow, and specced thoroughly through the defense tree for tanking power.

But in running red reaper at level 48, it's a little apparent that Shadows don't possess the same pure baseline defense capability as say, a Guardian. So I'm curious, what exactly is the role of a Defense Shadow in an Ops group? Do we main tank anything? Offtank some adds? Pull bosses off of the main tanks for a short breather?

What are you experiences with shadows in Ops groups? Just looking for an idea of what I am going to be doing or responsible for...and if I should just go to boring ol' dps Shadow.
Your conclusion is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with Shadow tank survivability. All three are relatively equal with some differences, obviously.

We are main tanks.

Exertim's Avatar


Exertim
01.29.2012 , 11:44 PM | #3
We use a single Shadow tank for both Karagga and EV (HM+NMM). In fact, Shadows are probably the best Soa tanks due to how his attack mechanics work (purely force) + being able to Sprint.
Sakarai - 50 Jedi Sentinel
Canderous Ordo

Raencloud's Avatar


Raencloud
01.29.2012 , 11:45 PM | #4
No idea what you are doing that makes you feel inadequate to tank. I've easily tanked every hard mode and EV on normal. I have no doubt I could go further, and most likely will now that I have more time.

The only really glaring weakness I can find between shadow/sin tanks and others is that our major defensive CD is a defense skill buff (50%), while other tanks get an actual damage reduction ability. Depending on the boss, our CD can be anywhere from nigh invulnerability to completely useless. It's especially evident in PVP, where half the classes attacks bypass defense entirely.

Even so, this class has other strengths over the other tanks, and unless you are doing super high end progression raiding on a fight where defense isn't very helpful, you won't have issues.

Eirienie's Avatar


Eirienie
01.30.2012 , 12:16 AM | #5
I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
01.30.2012 , 12:19 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Eirienie View Post
I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.
If you need more healing, then you're gearing wrong.

tXHereticXt's Avatar


tXHereticXt
01.30.2012 , 12:21 AM | #7
From what I'd gather so far on my Sin at 35 is that you're mostly Shield/Def as opposed to a Guard/Jugg being Armor/Def/shield. I'd say the Sin/Shadow rely solely on keeping their def and Shield chance as high as possible. I've thus far had a better run with my Sin in places like Taris where as a Jugg I pretty much needed Quinn at my side for heals. Guard/Jugg are more about eating the damage thrown at them while Sin/Shadow are more about mitigating it.

In a FP however team composition could be the problem. Maybe your designated healer just isn't up to par.



They should give Sin/Shadow's their original stances back and boost Soresu for the Guard/Jugg. Instead of nerfing one class for it's tanking abilities, they should of buffed the Guard/Jugg to be more competitive in the tank spec.

Glorionn's Avatar


Glorionn
01.30.2012 , 12:23 AM | #8
This another person coming to the conclusion that "other classes wear heavy armour, mine doesnt" then whining about it? Look at the facts. Shadows MT Ops. If you have a problem, its your problem, not the class.
Glor - CommandoGlorion - Guardian
Glory - SageGlorific - Gunslinger
Harlequin of Master Dar'nala

Lord_Galadrind's Avatar


Lord_Galadrind
01.30.2012 , 01:10 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Eirienie View Post
I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.
Thats quite a substantial claim when the theorycrafters have already shown just how close the 3 tank classes actually are . Try reading the tank forum stickies if you need a citation.


I also just wish people would actually try to understand how Shad/Sin armor actually works. Sin/Shadow in light armor after talent modifiers & dark charge have extremely comparible armor to a heavy armor wearing Jugg. If you personally don't like the 'idea' of a light armor wearing "dress" tank , that's fine. But people saying "how can they tank they only wear light armor' is simply incorrect.

Also the heavy armor wearing classes do not have 8k more "base" HP. The only way someone had more HP than you is their own personal level / gear Endurnace + any modifers stims/buffs they had at the time.

If it was 100% clear in your own mind that you required 'more healing' as you say it likely comes down to not maintaining optimal buff/debuffs on yourself & your target. Playing Sin / Shadow optimally as a tank is an exercise in micro management the likes of which easily discourages many people to rather just play one of the other two tank capable classes which tend to require alot less effort & thought for comparible results.

You have 3 target debuffs & two self buffs to keep track of all simultaneously on short durration CD's & watching for another 2 separate effect procs...let any of these drop or miss a proc & your survivability &/or threat drop off very rapidly .

Played poorly a Sin/Shadow is the least forgiving , any errors in play will show immediatly and evolve rapidly in spiralling effect difficult to recover from.
Played optimally a Sin/Shadow tank can do some absolutely amazing things......unbreakable

Antiqua's Avatar


Antiqua
01.30.2012 , 02:23 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Eirienie View Post
I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.
Tank "stance" for assassin is Dark Charge which compensates for base armor difference between light/heavy armor classes. Then you aim for 100% uptime of Dark Ward (more shields!), Wither and Discharge for debuffing and threat (they hit you less!), Shock as much as possible and heal yourself through Force Lightning (self-heal!). Also anticipating incoming heavy damage and using CDs (2 relics, medpacks, Force Shroud, Deflection) in time to counter these spikes is what makes you the best tank ever for your healer
For PvE tanking you could grab some moddable gear and fill it with blue or epic 50 lvl mods (say, daily quest rewards) that have max endurance and other tanking stats on it. Takes 7 days to grind it to full set. That's between 17k and 18k HP unbuffed, I believe. That's it, 8k HP difference is obviously gear, nothing "base" about it