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Operations are not melee friendly


sdeha's Avatar


sdeha
01.29.2012 , 06:58 AM | #1
I have been wondering why there isnt any discussion on operations regarding melee friendliness. Anyone who has done any of the operations and some hardmode flashpoints can see that this game just hates melee.

I think the most obvious examples are Soa and Bonethrasher. Both of these fights might as well be done without bringing any melee at all.

As an empire player I really do not see any use for melee in operations other than bringing some marauders for their group buffs. Assassins are quite useless as they bring no buffs and their survivability is weak. Powertech DPS has no mobility to speak of, the same goes for Operative DPS.

To me it feels this should be a large outrage about the end game design. But are people just so used to melee getting shafted when it comes to raiding, that people do not even bother to comment on it?

urgod's Avatar


urgod
01.29.2012 , 07:14 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by sdeha View Post
I have been wondering why there isnt any discussion on operations regarding melee friendliness. Anyone who has done any of the operations and some hardmode flashpoints can see that this game just hates melee.

I think the most obvious examples are Soa and Bonethrasher. Both of these fights might as well be done without bringing any melee at all.

As an empire player I really do not see any use for melee in operations other than bringing some marauders for their group buffs. Assassins are quite useless as they bring no buffs and their survivability is weak. Powertech DPS has no mobility to speak of, the same goes for Operative DPS.

To me it feels this should be a large outrage about the end game design. But are people just so used to melee getting shafted when it comes to raiding, that people do not even bother to comment on it?
No mmo in history has ever been melee friendly, get use to it and there's nothing to outrage or cry about, the mechanics on these boss fight that are supposed to be so un melee friendly are a joke, Soa is laughable and so is karagga the unyielding, and only bad players come plain about something that's been happening in mmo's for over 13 years.

sdeha's Avatar


sdeha
01.29.2012 , 07:33 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by urgod View Post
No mmo in history has ever been melee friendly, get use to it and there's nothing to outrage or cry about, the mechanics on these boss fight that are supposed to be so un melee friendly are a joke, Soa is laughable and so is karagga the unyielding, and only bad players come plain about something that's been happening in mmo's for over 13 years.
Well this does show the point quite well. Just because something has happened in the past, doesnt mean that there isnt a better way to design it.

And we arent really even talking about small differences between melee and ranged dps. Currently there is almost no reason whatsoever to bring melee over ranged to any encounters. This might change if we get combatlogs and see the actual dmg each class does, but somehow I doubt we will see larger numbers from melee.

Iwipe's Avatar


Iwipe
01.29.2012 , 07:42 AM | #4
Yup, you are right certain bosses are not melee friendly and bringing all ranged dps do make things easier.

That being said, we run 2x melee dps along with 2 ranged dps and have no issues in defeating all of hardmodes on 8 man (havn't tried nightmare yet). So it is certainly doable.

sdeha's Avatar


sdeha
01.29.2012 , 08:11 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Iwipe View Post
Yup, you are right certain bosses are not melee friendly and bringing all ranged dps do make things easier.

That being said, we run 2x melee dps along with 2 ranged dps and have no issues in defeating all of hardmodes on 8 man (havn't tried nightmare yet). So it is certainly doable.
We have done the same with nightmare as well. We normally have 3 ranged and 2 melee, everything is doable. But it does not remove the fact that everything would be easier with 5 ranged.

Grimravenlord's Avatar


Grimravenlord
01.29.2012 , 08:14 AM | #6
Are you new to mmos? This melee friendliness has been happening since ever, hence i rolled range in this game and never looked back! Learn your lessons from the past.
"War of Fire"

Munx's Avatar


Munx
01.29.2012 , 08:45 AM | #7
half our group are melees, and we still got 10/10 nightmare, but you are correct, there are bosses that are to punishing toward melee, and that would be fine if there were bosses that were equally punishing for ranged, there however is not.
Dark Knight of the forums.

Illanair's Avatar


Illanair
01.29.2012 , 09:00 AM | #8
You know - the argument "It has always been like that" is a really poor one to repeat in a new MMO. Just because the others are doing it, "we" should as well?

I see no reason not to make melee less "frustrating?" than a ranged class. Surely it shouldn't be your distance, but your ability to do damage that matters?

Making bosses completely range "neutral" is probably harder than what is worth, but I don't see why we shouldn't have bosses designed for melee (Like having less hazards closer to the boss) rather than ranged - at a 50/50 kind of balance thing. Homogenizing can go too far (see WoW and the recent "Everyone should have raid buffs so that noone is left out, ever" effect)

kainsec's Avatar


kainsec
01.29.2012 , 09:15 AM | #9
The reason back in the day bosses where designed to be anti-melee was MDPS was given a larger damage edge then their RDPS counterparts since RDPS had kiting, range, and superior CC. In most MMOs without any anti-melee mechanics MDPS glass cannons would omgwtfpwnbbq bosses making them far too desirable in a group to make range worth taking.

However, in SwtOR the traditional paradigm between melee and range is broken in that range has only a small disadvantage in damage giving absolutely no incentive to use melee at all over range since RDPS can continue to project damage most of the time leading to better actual DPS since there are no to few drop off periods where as melee may spend upwards of 15-25% of a fight avoiding a anti-melee mechanic. This leads to the opposite problem in TOR that range is far more desirable in raids than melee tot he point where if I where to put together a group given the choice of any classes I would never ever take an MDPS for any reason.

However, it should be noted that all content is clearable with MDPS heavy groups it just takes more effort and leaves less room for mistakes. I humbly request that future bosses either punish range as much as melee or that some bosses that are very anti-range be added in the future just to balance out the encounters. Also, to be fair OP bonetrasher is anti-everyone have you seen a sniper try and do something in that fight, it's kinda funny.
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KiranK's Avatar


KiranK
01.29.2012 , 09:20 AM | #10
The Devs are clearly clueless about their range to melee balance. Melee DPS doesn't put out more damage than ranged, so that blows the traditional excuse for any anti-melee sentiment out of the water. The melee aren't particularly more survivable either, blowing another excuse away. Lastly, the melee can not self heal. That's the last straw. The devs just like screwing over saber wielders that actually use their saber. This game was clearly meant to be "Sorcerers and Tracer Missile Spammers Online". Get with the program and reroll.
There's no QQing in baseball.