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Darth Vadar.. really bad??


Crompton's Avatar


Crompton
01.25.2012 , 12:22 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ShawnSixtyTwo View Post
Pure evil. Self-serving to the very end, too.

All the death and destruction he's responsible for is NOT redeemed by choosing not to let his own son be killed by the emperor.

I frequently have this argument with my wife, and I hold firm on this position - that even his final act of "goodness" was not without a bit of self-interest. Had Luke NOT been his own son things would have played out much different. No, his "redemption" is akin to Hitler (yeah, I went there...) leaving a suicide note that said "Sorry about the mess. I really just wanted to be loved".

As my favorite They Might Be Giants song says: "You can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
But does that not prove everything he done was about family?

Krusedullfaen's Avatar


Krusedullfaen
01.25.2012 , 12:27 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Crompton View Post
But does that not prove everything he done was about family?
Yeah, and? If you murder children I don't care if you did it to save your family, you still murdered children.

AbelMorvant's Avatar


AbelMorvant
01.25.2012 , 12:34 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Agemnon View Post
Hey, those sandpeople got what they deserved, though the Jedi children didn't.
Well the thing about him killing the sand people is that he admits that not only did he kill the men, but also the women and children. We never get a glimpse of the women and children and while it can be assumed that they didn't care about his mother's imprisonment or what the males did, it can also be assumed that perhaps they were just as oppressed in the sand people's society as much as their prisoners. Maybe their women were treated like crap and used only for reproduction kinda like how women were in real life back in the day - Anakin comes along and kills those women and children who probably had no idea what was going on.

Killing the men in that tribe isn't what was implied that made Anakin's actions darker, it was his admitting to killing the women and children. Also, I kinda look at the scene the same way I look at how cliche serial killers start their bad deeds - By killing and/or torturing small animals. Yeah the sand people people did do something bad it was still the first step towards becoming more hateful.

The thing about violent people is they don't become violent over night, it starts with smaller things that can almost be justified, but the more you act on hate the more hateful and intolerant you become.

Some abused children are the same way, they start by fighting back the ones who abused them, which can be somewhat justified. But then they go to school and someone else wrongs them and they hurt those people, then as they get older the more and more things that don't go their way they handle with violence and they end up becoming the thing they used to fight against.

justahdude's Avatar


justahdude
01.25.2012 , 01:04 PM | #14
Darth Vader,
Was VERY evil. Anikin Skywalker not so much. Anikin was extremely powerful in the force, however his one weakness was his emotions. because of this he ignored, on countless occasions one of the core teaching of the Jedi order.

"Be mindful of your feelings". The jedi code say there is no emotion there is peace. However it is unrealistic for the jedi counsel to ignore all emotion and act like cold robots, it is better to be mindful of your feelings and remain peaceful and in control.

Anikin had little control of his feelings and often resulted in disaster for him and everyone around him and eventually the entire galaxy. The jedi counsel failed miserably, Obi-wan failed to train Anikin well miserably, and the end result was Anikin was perfectly manipulated, by way of taking advantage of Anikin's emotions, typically the fastest and easiest way to turn a jedi to the dark side.

Specifically we see the manipulation first hand, as palpatine explains he knows a sith ritual that can extend life indefinitely. This was the seed, as Anikin wishes only to see the ones he loves free from harm. While the force offers glimpses and flashes of the future, it cannot offer specifics such as "This person is going to die" What anikin was plagued by was images of his wife in pain. She was pregnant after all and any mother can tell you child birth is not all fluffy clouds and chocolate. All anakin could see was her suffering, just as all Luke could see was Han and Leia suffering, though he was mindful enough to ask yoda "Will they die" and yoda responds with "difficult to see, always in motion the future is". Then again, Anikin's life has been wrought with pain. such as the sand people doing horrible things to his mother... And the other countless atrocities he faced during the clone wars. I am quite sure Anakin is on a first name basis with the grim reaper himself, it would only make sense that he would just assume his wife would die after all that suffering, and likewise would do anything to prevent that.

Lastly not knowing the nature and powers of the darkside, he knew not that palpatine intentionally feigned weakness when confronted by windu. Palpatine knew full well the jedi order would react harshly to the discovery of a sith, Even Anakin drew his lightsaber to his back, knowing full well that Palpatine had the powers he sought. Though palpatine convinced him that keeping him alive was best. Remember Anakin did care that Palpatine was a sith, or an ultimate evil in the galaxy, just that he had the answers he needed and those answers would be lost if he were dead. So palpatine knowing that the order would seek his destruction, and knowing Anakin would prevent that at any cost, he feigned defeat to windu, allowed his force lightning attack to mutalte himself. All the while showing anakin that the Jedi can and are just as absolute as the Sith.

and whose to say Windu, while a master of the force and a Jedi wasnt overcome by his own emotions.... He just witnessed 4 of his own jedi master friends slaughtered by the Lightsaber skills of Palpatine. Not to mention learning that he was the mastermind behind all the other countless jedi and clones who lost their lives in this shadow war of palpatine's design. Excuse me for bringing a star trek line into this, but i am absolutely sure he was "Emotionally Compromised".

Such is the way of the Dark side...

TL;DR: Vader isnt nearly as evil as his Master....

Crompton's Avatar


Crompton
01.25.2012 , 01:15 PM | #15
"Specifically we see the manipulation first hand, as palpatine explains he knows a sith ritual that can extend life indefinitely".

That's what I don't get.... They make it that if you love someone it turns you to the darkside, i would do that as stated above in the quote if it was real life.

Hellbring's Avatar


Hellbring
01.25.2012 , 01:27 PM | #16
actually it is not always that loving someone turns you to the dark side. Several points in the Jedi history has marriage and such been allowed, it was his actions and Darth Sidious ' actions that caused his fall. Yes it kinda was a temper tantrum in the new movies but by the end it was more he felt wronged and thought he lost everything. If you remember when Luke was in danger and being tortured by the Sidious Vader actually intervened and saved him, he is not all bad just misguided in my humble opinion
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

klambro's Avatar


klambro
01.26.2012 , 03:50 AM | #17
If marriage is the way to the dark side, we will all become sith in this game we play known as SW:ToR were you can have romances and marriage

earlallison's Avatar


earlallison
01.26.2012 , 06:04 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Crompton View Post
All he done was fight for the love of his mother and the love of Padmé does that make him a bad bloke??

The Jedi council should of helped him instead of ignoring him and slating him for his actions...

I blame yoda
I'm going to disagree with your initial premises;

Anakin didn't fight 'for the love of his mother.' He slaughtered men, women, and children in a rage over his mother's death. Now, it's understandable to an extent that he felt such rage, but not that he murdered people over it. What the Tusken Raiders did was inexcusable, but that doesn't justify his actions. It makes them understandable, and ones we can empathize with, but it doesn't make them RIGHT. It was the first real sign that Anakin had issues beyond simple teen rebellion and angst.

As for Padme, Anakin didn't fight for her love. At the end, she came off more like a possession to him. He didn't want her to die, which was understandable (who among us would want a loved one to die?). What he opted to do was neither understandable nor acceptable. And if Padme meant so much to him, why did he Force Choke her?

No, Anakin was horribly unbalanced mentally, and I think between Palpatine's nudging, his being called the Chosen One, and his own badly-controlled desires, it was all he needed to become Vader.

I love my family, and I would do a lot to protect them. I'd like to think I wouldn't wage war, slaughter children I had until recently been allied with, and then turn on my family, over the issue.

I do think the idea of "no attachments" is a bad one, as is the seeming-suppression of emotion, but Anakin went so far in the opposite direction that I can't really have any sympathy for him.

Even if, in the absolute best scenario, Anakin had acquired immortality for Padme, do you really think she would have been happy with it? Knowing what it cost in blood?

No, Anakin at the end wanted power. He'd already helped kill Mace Windu, led the assault on the Jedi Temple, and then offered to kill Palpatine so he and Padme could rule the galaxy.

Anakin couldn't handle the simple concept that PEOPLE DIE. Death is the natural end to life (not to sound all zen). Anakin just couldn't wrap his mind around that, whether it had to do with his mother's death, his being told he was the Chosen One, or what have you.

Yes, the Jedi could have handled things better, but here's something to consider;

The Jedi had existed for hundreds or thousands of years before Anakin. So, was the failing in the Order, or was the failing in Anakin? How many Jedi came before Anakin who managed not to go spinning madly off the rails and into the embrace of the Dark Side?

Let's also not forget that he opted to marry Padme despite knowing he was committing heresy against the Order in doing so. He's already established himself as someone who considers himself above the rules.

I personally believe that, while the Council and the Order didn't do Anakin any favors, at the end, it was his own fears, ambitions, and passions that were at fault.

I blame Anakin. He made a lot of bad choices even before opting to work with Palpatine and turning on Windu, choices that benefitted him before the oaths he'd sworn (marrying Padme leaps to mind).

Lucas may have made the Jedi unlikable and wooden, stacking the deck against them, as it were, but that doesn't make Anakin any less responsible, IMHO.

Take it and run,

Hellbring's Avatar


Hellbring
01.26.2012 , 04:26 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by earlallison View Post
I'm going to disagree with your initial premises;

So, was the failing in the Order, or was the failing in Anakin?

Take it and run,
The failing was in Anakin, the Jedi Mantra says, "There is no Death, there is only the Force." Yoda tried to explain this to him, which I know has been stated in this thread before, but was something he couldn't quite understand, which may have been him letting his emotions get the better of him but by this point he had, at least 5 years of, training which should have been long enough for him to gain some understanding of life and death.
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.26.2012 , 04:32 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by AbelMorvant View Post
Well the thing about him killing the sand people is that he admits that not only did he kill the men, but also the women and children. We never get a glimpse of the women and children and while it can be assumed that they didn't care about his mother's imprisonment or what the males did, it can also be assumed that perhaps they were just as oppressed in the sand people's society as much as their prisoners. Maybe their women were treated like crap and used only for reproduction kinda like how women were in real life back in the day - Anakin comes along and kills those women and children who probably had no idea what was going on.

Killing the men in that tribe isn't what was implied that made Anakin's actions darker, it was his admitting to killing the women and children. Also, I kinda look at the scene the same way I look at how cliche serial killers start their bad deeds - By killing and/or torturing small animals. Yeah the sand people people did do something bad it was still the first step towards becoming more hateful.

The thing about violent people is they don't become violent over night, it starts with smaller things that can almost be justified, but the more you act on hate the more hateful and intolerant you become.

Some abused children are the same way, they start by fighting back the ones who abused them, which can be somewhat justified. But then they go to school and someone else wrongs them and they hurt those people, then as they get older the more and more things that don't go their way they handle with violence and they end up becoming the thing they used to fight against.
Actually the female sand people are responsible for looking over the campsites and children, though in some tribes they did hunt alongside the men so they can be just as barbaric.

"In some tribes, their role seem to have involved maintaining the encampments while the males raided and hunted, but in other groups, perhaps more strictly nomadic in outlook, they may have lived and hunted more closely alongside their menfolk."
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.