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Huge bug with Ataru Form

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Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
01.25.2012 , 04:06 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kibaken View Post
Hm. I still don't fully understand it but I do see where you're coming from. For the numbers you posted above what was the time differential like?
It was actually a fairly significant difference. Nightmare Council Marauders have approx 114.5k health(can't remember the exact number off the top of my head but I did use exact values during testing and rounded to the nearest whole DPS). With Carnage I think the average was around 85 seconds per kill and with Annihilation it was around 75 seconds per kill. One thing to keep in mind is that Annihilation will test more poorly the shorter the fight length while Carnage will stay relatively the same. Annihilation's damage is a lot higher once you get the 3-stack Annihilator buff and have the chance to use Berserk a few times.
Wrath
Pre-Launch Hardcore Guild that has moved on to better games.
www.wrathnation.com

zoranporan's Avatar


zoranporan
01.25.2012 , 04:13 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Hizoka View Post
Carnage is garbage for DPS in PvE anyways.
Can you for the love of god stop QQing and actully for ONCE come with a constructive feedback on a post? Seriously, so much hate, why are you even here? Stop posting if you have nothing of value to add.

Every damn post i read you write some re****ed s**t like this.
Sith Marauder | Helle | ToFN EU

Avengelyne's Avatar


Avengelyne
01.25.2012 , 04:50 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by RocketL View Post
Does it really matter who's right and who's wrong? Just play the spec you like...

To be fair - this comment is a little naive even if its intentions are good.

I cant speak to everyones motivations but I'll try to summarise a little.

Raiders (people who Run Operations) tend on avg to be a set of 'serious' gamers.
There is more at play with this subset than 'Just seeing the content & having fun' - see: The spirit of competition for example - Others like to test themselves against the challenges put in front them & push themselves to new heights by improving everytime they try them. Heck even 'Fame or Infamy' effect them. Us.

Probably the most important factor for Raiders is Time. Time is Money (Literally In Subscription Based MMO's) and often both Time & Money are in short supply (to the avg household gamer anyways) as both are influenced by external forces outside the team that they cannot control - Friendships, Family, Studying, Work - Others hobbies etc.

This puts a certain pressure on people to complete thier weekly gaming sessions in the most efficient way possible - quick & clean.

Operations are designed to require a 'TEAM EFFORT' and Class Specs that are underperforming through no fault of the player can generate an uneccessary burden on the group as whole. For some people it feels personal if your toon is underperforming and being a part of a team in this way can leave the individual quite unhappy.

Becoming a Raider type, your putting upon yourself a certain level of responsability not just to yourself to become a better player, but taking on a responability to your other Team mates because your playing with THIER Time & Money also and by stepping up to the plate in this manner your basically saying 'I agree to be a part of this team & to abide by the Rules & Guidelines this team has laid out before me'.
Not living up to your end of the bargain can cause deep rifts in even the closest of friends & family because it feels like an abuse of trust. I've seen that 1st hand with people from my Old WoW Guild.

To people like us, being a Raider in a Team doing Operations is a equally important as being a player in team that play Football instead of computer games.
Often the catchphrase 'Its just a game, chill out' gets banded about by people who dont understand or care about these basic concepts that Raiders subscribe too and is often the biggest insult a Raider can be given because, lets face it - NOTHING is 'Just a Game' where money is involved.
By all means play what you like & have fun, just be careful who you aim your comments at.
Someone needs to take away your keyboard until you're better able to read the explicit meaning in sentences without implying whatever you want in order to be contrary.

AcaciaDragon's Avatar


AcaciaDragon
01.25.2012 , 08:05 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Tumri View Post
It was actually a fairly significant difference. Nightmare Council Marauders have approx 114.5k health(can't remember the exact number off the top of my head but I did use exact values during testing and rounded to the nearest whole DPS). With Carnage I think the average was around 85 seconds per kill and with Annihilation it was around 75 seconds per kill. One thing to keep in mind is that Annihilation will test more poorly the shorter the fight length while Carnage will stay relatively the same. Annihilation's damage is a lot higher once you get the 3-stack Annihilator buff and have the chance to use Berserk a few times.
I assume you used the same gear for when you yourself tried both specs out. If you tracked the dps using what ive seen other people use: a DPS race with someone else to see who can beat those mobs first thats; not a very accurate way of doing it.

Both specs utilize stats very differently. Using the same gear only means one of those specs is getting the advantage, and in the Case of Carnage vs Annhilation this is very true.

As a Carnage Marauder, we have at least 3% more accuracy, and in some variations of other specs, 6%. The Top level gear has about 300 accuracy, which puts Carnage mara at 105-106% accuracy while Rage and annhilation can sit at 100-103%. We have extra accuracy we dont need. Meaning we have more stats than we probably need.

How I feel About Accuracy
Spoiler


Now that I have said that, it would make sense that Annhilation actually has the stat advantage when it comes to colomni(whatever the spelling) gear. It relys on Crit primarly for those bleed crits, while Carnage relys alot on Power.

There is a big difference in gear between Colomni and Rakata:

+100 accuracy(with full Colomni we Carnage marauders already have our needed accuracy. We have 150 of a secondary stat we DONT need)

100 +crit (Big help for annhilation)

Power and Surge stay about the same. So you can see the Gear highly favors Annihilation.

If Carnage Marauders had +100 power instead of Accuracy, I bet your numbers would be alot different. The fact that, according to your results, Carnage marauders were only 200 DPS behind you says alot about how much stronger Carnage might be. But I honestly dont know. In just know i Like Carnage because its fun, not because its the best. All 3 specs have there uses and i feel are very equal.

So you can see its easy to say Annhilation is a better spec when you have the gear that supports it.

TL;DR: Saying you did more DPS in Annhilation is like saying an Arms warrior in Arms Tier Gear is better than a Fury Warrior in Arms Tier Gear.

EasymodeX's Avatar


EasymodeX
01.25.2012 , 10:29 AM | #25
Carnage relies more on crits. It gets crit damage bonus to every single damage ability. While Scream autocrits, Massacre and Ataru procs don't.

Annihilation has a broader use of abilities with normal crit damage.

Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
01.25.2012 , 10:32 AM | #26
Except for the fact that no gear in the game has a lot of power. It's a rare stat and it's very good for annihilation as well. Carnage and annihilation both have auto-crit abilities and both scale about the same with stats. Unlike WoW there is no way to get the stats you want by simply regemming. Power/Surge is something you'll need to struggle to get. I already posted how I conducted my tests. I didn't "race someone" because I am aware how stupid and inaccurate that would be.
Wrath
Pre-Launch Hardcore Guild that has moved on to better games.
www.wrathnation.com

Novastinger's Avatar


Novastinger
01.25.2012 , 10:36 AM | #27
Who cares about all this off-topic nonsense, can anyone confirm the OP's original topic, of the Ataru form proc not working from the outer part of melee range on a large mob? If it is indeed bugged, that's a pretty serious bug.

I'll do some testing on my Sentinel tonight.

Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
01.25.2012 , 11:01 AM | #28
Yes it is bugged. There's not much to discuss about the actual bug since the OP pretty much covered it. We're discussing the viability of the Carnage spec as a whole since this bug just makes it a poor choice in Ops where the majority of bosses have gigantic hitboxes.
Wrath
Pre-Launch Hardcore Guild that has moved on to better games.
www.wrathnation.com

AcaciaDragon's Avatar


AcaciaDragon
01.25.2012 , 11:08 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Tumri View Post
Except for the fact that no gear in the game has a lot of power. It's a rare stat and it's very good for annihilation as well. Carnage and annihilation both have auto-crit abilities and both scale about the same with stats. Unlike WoW there is no way to get the stats you want by simply regemming. Power/Surge is something you'll need to struggle to get. I already posted how I conducted my tests. I didn't "race someone" because I am aware how stupid and inaccurate that would be.
Actually you can completely change the stat on some armor by replacing the enhancement (i do this for my champion gear). I changed over about 120 accuracy on my chest boots and legs for Power,Crit, and Surge enhancements(i know im trading a 24 rating enhancement for a 22) but now im not getting anymore useless accuracy as Carnage. I saw my average Force Scream crit go from 2300 to 2600 and Massacres hit for about 100-150 more. And i still dont miss unless im up against a Tank.

Hizoka's Avatar


Hizoka
01.25.2012 , 11:46 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kibaken View Post
I'd still like to see said proof of Annihilation being the end-all be-all DPS tree. Or is it just a "feeling?"

I consider myself one of those "good" Marauders and, after playing both Annihilation and Carnage I've found them both to be on-par in PvE with Rage feeling slightly weaker.
if you were good at the class, you would know. Its not a "feeling" but when an annihilation marauder in the exact same gear with exact same player can kill something is a much shorter time then carnage, logic dictates it does more damage.


Carnage is built around a 6 second debuff, annihilation is not it can also do damage while not on target. Carnage also has many wasted talents when it comes to raiding. For instance "Overwhelm" it sounds good and everything 2 points to root your ravage target, however it does not work on bosses, and if you play correctly you won't ravage when you know the target is gonna move 2 wasted points, "Narrowed Hatred" it is +3% to hit, sounds great, but atrau forms does that as well, and our teir gear is littered with accuracy, you have to basicaly steal other people gear to re-mod everything to be able to make use of the talented hit, 3 more points wasted or you burden you raid with an excess of states and much slower gearing up.


Annihilation never has "burst" moments like Carnage however in a raid situation nothing is better then consistancy, and no spec in the game right now can provide more consistant damage then Annihialtion.

Some people have been play this class for 8+ months, you might want to listen to people who have more experiance with the class then you can even get before the fall. Carnage used to be closer to Annihilation, but they changed that in the beta when they made Force scream a 9 second talented cooldown instead of 6 second.

That is just in damage, now in Utility no class in the game comes close to an annihilation marauder in a raid. With a 12 second leap and 6 second hard interrupt you can keep pretty much any mob from ever casting anything, no other class can solo lock down a mob. Take the 2 "bodyguards" in Kraggas palace, one is a "tank" the other is a "healer" that fight is stupid easy with a smart marauder because a smart marauder can take the healer out of the fight and leave everyone else to kill the "tank" with rotating saber ward, cloack of pain obsfucate, you can actually tank him because he doesn't do much damage and hes busy trying to heal.

Carnage is just inferior to Annihlation in ever way possible for PvE.