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Republic vs. Empire Storyline Compatability

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Republic vs. Empire Storyline Compatability

Lexandar's Avatar


Lexandar
01.27.2012 , 05:54 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Ranadiel_Marius View Post
No I am saying that it doesn't make any sense for the Voss to listen to anything that the Empire has to say at this point if the Republic is there taking over the stronghold of their mortal enemies for the Voss.
So in essence you are saying that factions never switch sides. It is very possible for the Voss to reconsider their position if evidence of a past atrocity comes to light. Defeating a stronghold does not end the threat of their mortal enemies. They haven't exactly enacted a genocide on the Gornak have they?

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The "dissenting member of the three" does not like the implication on either side. He reacts stornger on the Imperial side than he does on the Republic side, which I am using as a partial basis for my timing on how I believe the canon series of events played out.
Maybe he had a really bad day? Maybe he just doesn't like the Imperials/has sympathies with the Republic? There are plenty of reasons for someone to dismiss one idea stronger than the other. His tone in isolation means nothing.

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My actual reasoning is that the results of the LS decisions are implied to be the same between the two factions while the DS endings require the endings of the other side to be invalidated to some degree(or perhaps it would be better worded as the result of the ending being undone) for them to work. I believe that the proper way to figure out the canon for all stories in the game are to find the resolutions that don't require entire endings for other stories to be invalidated(or the "results" of them to be undone).
Assuming that it does in fact invalidate them. You also assume that the decisions in an ending is set in stone and that nothing can happen later on to alter its outcome.

Idunhavaname's Avatar


Idunhavaname
01.27.2012 , 06:12 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkestDaemon View Post
The Empire pretty much breaks the back of the Republic on Taris.
This is what pisses me off. All that hardwork only to find out that imps end up winning. Same goes to Balmorra with Republic victory. Almost like a "LOL TOO BAD, U MAD?" from BioWare.
.

RIP orange pixel

Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
01.27.2012 , 07:16 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Idunhavaname View Post
This is what pisses me off. All that hardwork only to find out that imps end up winning. Same goes to Balmorra with Republic victory. Almost like a "LOL TOO BAD, U MAD?" from BioWare.
Actually, that discovery was just the capstone on what we discover as Republic players DURING the Taris part -- the story seen through the cairns is just heart-wrenching -- that NOTHING that Revan (that is, you, the player of KoTOR) did on Taris has achieved anything beyond prolonging the suffering of one group, and may well have been the cause of the deaths of billions by driving Malak to bombard the planet. And that again is echoed with us freeing Revan from the Maelstrom prison, only for him to head for the dark side and then be killed off (maybe...) by an Imperial strike team.

Pretty depressing stuff for the Republic, and possibly part of what lead to the server population imbalance, if the Empire is portrayed generally as winning AND as being "cooler".

Ranadiel_Marius's Avatar


Ranadiel_Marius
01.27.2012 , 07:30 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Lexandar View Post
So in essence you are saying that factions never switch sides. It is very possible for the Voss to reconsider their position if evidence of a past atrocity comes to light. Defeating a stronghold does not end the threat of their mortal enemies. They haven't exactly enacted a genocide on the Gornak have they?
Sure it is possible that the Voss could reconsider their position....but the circumstances you are describing under which they would be changing their mind are ridiculous. The closest hypothetical equivilent I can think of would be the British breaking all diplomatic relations with America shortly after D-Day because they got a telegraph from the Japanese saying that it was an American plot that killed Archduke Ferdinand of Austria without providing any evidence to support the claim. That is roughly the situation we are talking about with Voss here.

A baseless claim from an enemy is not going to destroy a beneficial relationship between two powers. At least not that quickly. And lets not kid ourselves, the Imperial claim is completely baseless. They have no evidence to back it up, just the word of a single soldier who heard from a ghost. We know it is true, but that doesn't mean it would hold much weight without any support.


Quote: Originally Posted by Lexandar View Post
Maybe he had a really bad day? Maybe he just doesn't like the Imperials/has sympathies with the Republic? There are plenty of reasons for someone to dismiss one idea stronger than the other. His tone in isolation means nothing.
*shrug* This was just to explain my reasoning for my timing with regards to what I view the canon series of events to be.


Quote: Originally Posted by Lexandar View Post
Assuming that it does in fact invalidate them. You also assume that the decisions in an ending is set in stone and that nothing can happen later on to alter its outcome.
No I'm not. I believe that when trying to determine the canon, the canon should be assumed to be the paths for the quests where the results invalidate each other the least. If that assumption isn't made then there is no evidence that exists to determine the canon and any discussions on what is canon therefore becomes pointless and a waste of time.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ancaglon View Post
Actually, that discovery was just the capstone on what we discover as Republic players DURING the Taris part -- the story seen through the cairns is just heart-wrenching -- that NOTHING that Revan (that is, you, the player of KoTOR) did on Taris has achieved anything beyond prolonging the suffering of one group, and may well have been the cause of the deaths of billions by driving Malak to bombard the planet. And that again is echoed with us freeing Revan from the Maelstrom prison, only for him to head for the dark side and then be killed off (maybe...) by an Imperial strike team.

Pretty depressing stuff for the Republic, and possibly part of what lead to the server population imbalance, if the Empire is portrayed generally as winning AND as being "cooler".
The Republic wins on Balmorra, and that is a much mroe important location that Taris, so I hardly think the deafeat in Cahpter 2 on Taris had any serious impact on the server imbalance.

Lexandar's Avatar


Lexandar
01.27.2012 , 08:43 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Ranadiel_Marius View Post
Sure it is possible that the Voss could reconsider their position....but the circumstances you are describing under which they would be changing their mind are ridiculous. The closest hypothetical equivilent I can think of would be the British breaking all diplomatic relations with America shortly after D-Day because they got a telegraph from the Japanese saying that it was an American plot that killed Archduke Ferdinand of Austria without providing any evidence to support the claim. That is roughly the situation we are talking about with Voss here.
No a closer example would be Russia fighting their ally Germany because Germany betrayed them.

Just because you cannot comprehend the scenario doesn't make it ridiculous. Moreover it is almost as ridiculous to suggest that fighting a particular threat with a faction warrants their undivided, unyielding loyalty. Hell the Americans helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan and that didn't exactly work out well did it?

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A baseless claim from an enemy is not going to destroy a beneficial relationship between two powers. At least not that quickly. And lets not kid ourselves, the Imperial claim is completely baseless. They have no evidence to back it up, just the word of a single soldier who heard from a ghost. We know it is true, but that doesn't mean it would hold much weight without any support.
There's also that ancient device which talked about the Sith Jedi war. It was mentioned that it hadn't been fully translated. It's very likely (depending on who actually wrote it) that the details of this will be discussed. Given that its in Sith hands at the end of the story, bets are that it very much will be discussed in a particular way.

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*shrug* This was just to explain my reasoning for my timing with regards to what I view the canon series of events to be.
Ok but its a pretty shaky foundation to the solid claim you're making.

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No I'm not. I believe that when trying to determine the canon, the canon should be assumed to be the paths for the quests where the results invalidate each other the least.
What you're essentially saying is that endings are absolute so long as they don't invalidate each other. Ultimately paths will invalidate each other in a natural way (counter attack, new developments, etc.). Otherwise you might as well say that Darth Decimus conquered Corellia the end. Developments could and did happen leading t the Republic killing him. Similarly, in the future, the Empire might strike back and reclaim Corellia.

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If that assumption isn't made then there is no evidence that exists to determine the canon and any discussions on what is canon therefore becomes pointless and a waste of time.
With the absence of further evidence discussion on objective canon is completely pointless. Which is basically what I've been saying all along. That doesn't invalidate discussion on canon, however, just makes objective "this is the definite situation" answers false.


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The Republic wins on Balmorra, and that is a much mroe important location that Taris, so I hardly think the deafeat in Cahpter 2 on Taris had any serious impact on the server imbalance.
Do they? Balmorra is within Empire territory and thus within striking distance. Balmorras assets are one small orbital bombardment away from being utterly useless. Taris represented a massive investment in resources and (presumably promised) prospective refugee colony, a critical problem for the Republic as shown on Coruscant. Without it they'll have a lot of angry, homeless and poor sentients out for a roof on their head. Hell if Coruscants hit by an arab spring esque riot the Republic would be in trouble.

Ranadiel_Marius's Avatar


Ranadiel_Marius
01.28.2012 , 08:29 AM | #46
*sigh* Can we just agree to disagree? Clearly neither of us is budging on the Voss thing, and I doubt another ten pages of discussion on this is going to make a difference to either of us.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lexandar View Post
Do they? Balmorra is within Empire territory and thus within striking distance. Balmorras assets are one small orbital bombardment away from being utterly useless. Taris represented a massive investment in resources and (presumably promised) prospective refugee colony, a critical problem for the Republic as shown on Coruscant. Without it they'll have a lot of angry, homeless and poor sentients out for a roof on their head. Hell if Coruscants hit by an arab spring esque riot the Republic would be in trouble.
O_o Balmorra is in the Coreworlds. It is infact closer to Hutt space than it is to The Seat of the Empire. I know it was part of the Empire during the time of the treaty, but that doesn't mean it is easy for them to get to it now.

And Drommund Kaas is one orbital bombardment away from being utterly useless. Alderaaan is one orbital bombardment away from being utterly useless. Every planet is one orbital bombarment away from being a new Taris except for Hoth and Tatooine because there is barely anything to destroy on those planets. Saying that an orbital bombardment would render a planet useless hardly strips the gain from the vistory unless we want to go nihilistic and say that every victory in the game was utterly useless.

And Taris was at least a decade away from being able to absorb any serious amount of refugees. Was the Taris a set back? Yes, but gaining Balmorra is of larger benefit to the war effort.

Edit: Just logged ina bit ago, and it seems the Galaxy Map on the website has different placement of the planets compared to the in game one. >.> So ignore my comment about Balmorra being closer to Hutt space than Imperial space. I think it might still be true but the difference if it is there isn't enough to warrant the comment. I stand by the rest of the post though.